Episode 161: Business Insurance for Dog Breeders

Learn about why dog breeders should consider insuring their programs and how business insurance can protect you and your breeding program.

This episode is an audio version of a webinar Good Dog hosted about business insurance. To see the video recording, click here.

Transcript

Nicole Engelman  00:04

Welcome to the Good Dog Pod. Join us every other Wednesday when we discuss all things dogs, from health and veterinary care, to training and behavior science, as well as the ins and outs of Good Dog and how our platform can help you successfully run your breeding program. Follow us and join Good Dog’s mission to build a better world for our dogs and the people who love them.  Hi, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of The Good Dog Pod where we discuss all things related to canine health, research how Good Dog helps breeders run their breeding programs and so much more. I'm Nicole, the Breeder Community Lead here at Good Dog and your host for this week's episode. While we usually cover canine health topics on this podcast, today we're going to be diving into something a little different and that's business insurance for dog breeders. To help us with that we brought in an expert for this episode. So I'm really excited to introduce Dennis Stowers, who is a Certified Insurance Counselor at Mourer-Foster, a full service insurance agency that also offers specialized business insurance for dog breeders at kennelpro.net. We invited Dennis here today to discuss why dog breeders should consider insuring their programs, and how business insurance can protect you and your breeding program. At the end of the episode, he'll also be doing a Q&A answering our community's previously submitted questions. So stay tuned for that. As always, this was a topic requested by our community. And we're so excited to present it to you today. And we hope it'll be a helpful resource for you and your breeding programs. As a friendly reminder, this podcast is for general information purposes only. And we cannot speak to or give advice on individual insurance questions. And we recommend working directly with a Certified Insurance Counselor for those. So with that I will pass things off to Dennis to kick off this episode.

Dennis Stowers  01:48

All right, well, thank you. I appreciate it. Well, my name is Dennis Stowers. I'm an insurance agent. I've been in the insurance business since 1970. We run this out of an independent insurance agency out of Lansing, Michigan. And getting into the dog business oh about 30 years ago, we received a call from a lady and she was going to do something that was unheard of at the time. She was going to your house to take care of your pets while you were on vacation. So you didn't have to take him to the mean old boarding kennel. She asked if we could write her insurance and we found a carrier, The Hartford to write it and we wrote her insurance. And two minutes later, we got another call from another person. And we wrote her insurance and the calls just kept coming, coming and coming. We received a call from the Association of Pet Dog Trainers out of California. They asked us to come to Chicago for their national convention. We went, we had a little booth that was in between Purina and Iams. We had an old little piece of cardboard with some dog pictures on it and we sold insurance. And they would only let these people in for about two hours at a time and when they opened the doors at 10 o'clock we probably had close to 100 people standing there waiting for us to talk to them. In two and a half days we sold over 165 policies to dog trainers. When we got back to the office, the telephones rang 24/7. We had to call Hartford and Hartford's customer service actually took a lot of our calls. From the pet sitters, the dog trainers, we went on to do doggy daycares, which were a new thing. We do dog clubs, we do therapy dog organizations. We do the Sporting Dog people, the retrievers, the pointers, flushing dogs, groomers, port in your home, daycares, breeders, of course, just about anything related to the dog industry, with the exception of rescue groups we get involved in, we're probably one of the largest writers of insurance for the dog pet industry in the nation. So back in the days, commercial insurance, and we'll talk mostly about dog breeders right now, for the most part, the dog breeders that we do are basically home base. They do the breeding at their residence, okay. There's a few of them that are bigger operations that actually have kennel facilities at their house. And the one thing that we always run into is in the smaller breeders. They believe that their homeowners insurance provides liability insurance for their breeding operation. If you read a homeowner's policy, which I know everyone does, we'll find two exclusions in it and one's called business pursuits, that relates to their liability, and the business liability. Whether you're waving baskets in the garage or breeding dogs or training dogs in the backyard. Anything related to a business is going to be excluded under your homeowner's policy. In addition to that, if you take your two car detached garage and turn that into a kennel, that building is automatically excluded, because there's an exclusion under your homeowner's policy that excludes any business property. That can be the contents or the building itself. So in those cases, then you need to look at going to a commercial insurance policy and getting a comprehensive general liability policy. If you do have property, you know, most of the time, we would write it under a business owners policy against property liability, etc.

Dennis Stowers  05:41

Different types of breeding programs, they all have about the same exposures, okay, small scale, of course, you know, the in your home type stuff. That's not a problem. Basically, all you do is you look at a liability because you don't have any property to insure most of the time, you have crates, or dog pans or stuff, and it's not worth insuring that small value. When you change it over to building a building, or a kennel in the backyard, that's a different story. Then you need commercial property insurance, you insure your contents, and loss of income. So if you had a fire, lightning, windstorm, hail, and you lost your contents, you lost your business, we reimburse you for your loss of income until you can get back into business. So that's business interruption. So even if you're a dog breeder, you have the same exposures as a shoe store. And that's the way you actually put that program together. The one thing I will say is, don't contact your homeowners carriers, because this is what we've run into. Homeowners carriers, because they specifically exclude liability, they specifically exclude property. If your kennel burns down tomorrow, they're not going to pay for it. If somebody comes to your property and gets bitten by a dog or hurt or falls down or a hose or slips on what concrete at the kennel building, they are not going to represent you or pay for it. They exclude it. They don't want anything to do with it, because the court system has forced sometimes the homeowners carrier to at least defend you on those they may not pay, but they have to defend. So a homeowner's carrier looks at it as like, hey, if we don't write your homeowners, we don't have an exposure. And that's what they do. So if they find out you're running a business at your home, right now, there's a good chance that they probably would not renew you, or cancel your policy. We used to be able to do this. We ran into this a lot of times with our sporting dog people, they live on the property, the retrievers, the pointer guys. They live on the same property as their business. For a while we were able to write homeowners which was Safeco and they quit. No, we went with Lexington, they quit. And right now we do not have a market that will write homeowners for people that have businesses on their property. So that's just an FYI. Just take it from me, homeowner's policy will not cover any business exposure. Like I said, if you have a kennel building there, you need to go with commercial property and liability is a must either way you go. 

Dennis Stowers  08:27

Well, here's one thing about liability. Liability is bodily injury and property damage. Okay. That covers you anywhere in the United States, Canada, Puerto Rico, US territories. But general liability policy is a standard. It's the same policy that the plumber has. So you do have that. The one thing under an insurance policy is animals in your care, custody and control. I used to raise English Setters a long time ago and then the ones I picked never turned out and then they would call me in six months. And they wanted to know if I was going to breed again, because the ones I sold were better than the ones I kept. So I quit doing that, and I got on the other side of the fence and started buying them from breeders and was more successful that way. So I was not a very good breeder, I guess. Well, I was but I wasn't. So it wasn't a good choice of dogs. So in a breeding situation, if you bring in outside females into your kennel, you have a care, custody and control exposure. So if something happens to a dog while it's in your care, custody, control, whether it dies, gets injured, whatever is that our policies include what they call care, custody and control. So for animals in your care, custody and control, we provide the medical or replacement of the animal and there's different levels and you can design your limits in your coverages however it fits your exposure. 

Dennis Stowers  09:55

The one thing about breeding is back when I was a kid, when you had a bernese mountain dog and it got hooked up with a poodle. They call them KERS and you couldn't get rid of them. Now they call them bernedoodles And you can't afford them anymore. So, the one thing is most of the time, in the breeders that we do, those litters are pretty much sold before they're even whelped. So those dogs that are in your kennel are considered animals in your care, custody and control of non owned dogs, and we can cover those puppies. Now if they get Parvo, kennel cough, whatever, there's nobody out there that does sickness with the exception of The Hartford. And Hartford is very limited on what they'll do if not necessarily a breeding operation. They'll do doggy daycares, importing kennels, they do have coverage for it, it's a little expensive, but it is available, most of the other carriers don't provide, so theft attacked by another dog that type of stuff, fire, lightning, windstorm and hail to those puppies with their own by somebody else, you can cover them under your animal bailee coverage. It also applies to show dog people. I mean, if you're a dog trainer, show dog person, you travel with dogs, while they're in transit, while they're at the dog show whether in your possession without the owner present. That's animal bailee coverage, and it's available. And that can be written up to $2 million, anywhere from 10,000 to 2 million, depending on the exposure that you have and what kind of dogs you're transporting, etc, etc. The most expensive dog that we insure right now is a $200,000 stock dog. That was the most expensive one we've ever insured. We've ventured dogs for $100,000. We've insured dogs that the Purina had, and they shipped to South America for the Purina days down there. And we insured all their dogs while they were in transit. And while we're in South America, there is coverage available for that. 

Dennis Stowers  12:01

Coverage goes into effect, basically, you know, we like to talk to people over the phone, there's a way that you can actually apply online, applying online, it's not the best way to do it. Because there are a few things that people don't understand about insurance. And it's a good idea to talk to somebody on the phone, because we're going to ask you some questions that you basically don't think about. One of the most important ones is that when you set up a company, usually these people are setting them up as limited liability corporations. Not a problem, you write an insurance policy for a limited liability corporation, you get your 1 million, 2 million, whatever limits that you buy, which is fine. But you're operating it on a piece of property that's owned by you, you and your husband, etc, your home. The thing is, is that if somebody got hurt on that property, and they decide to sue, and they sue everybody in their brother, because attorneys like the more arrows they shoot, the better chances of hitting a bullseye. They're not only going to sue the LLC, but they're going to ensure the property owners, you become like a landlord to the LLC. When we get into those situations, we get a lot of dog trainers per se most of the time. And you know Sally's dog training, and Sally she's a sole proprietor, and she calls us up and says, Hey, I'm so excited, I'm an LLC now and I go real great. Where do you train your dogs, and she goes in my backyard. I'm going uh oh, you just cost yourself a little bit of liability insurance. So when you do that LLC, you always want to make sure that you add you and your husband on there as an additional named insured under that insurance policy. That way, if they sue the LLC, and they also sue the property owner, then that LLC policy is not only going to protect LLC, but it'll protect you as a property owner, as it relates to a business liability. If the neighbor lady comes over to borrow a cup of sugar and falls down the front steps, that's where your homeowners policy is going to cover that. So you have to kind of separate the commercial to the business. So that's one thing that people fail to answer when they do it online. And we have a place online, you can do this stuff. But like I said, it's always best to talk to somebody and let them answer some questions because that's how we find out what's going on, you know, because another example of this is we talked to a dog show dog person and this guy said, I asked him about his kennel and he said he had a $250,000 kennel behind his house. I asked him how he insured it. He said it was under his homeowner's. I said no it's not. He said yes, it is. It's no it's not. Yes, it is. And I hated to tell him to do this. But I said, call your homeowners and ask them because you got an exposure there. It wasn't about five minutes later, the phone rang and the bells were ringing and the PA system was calling on line three, and there was him and going, Hey, I need to insure my building because it's not covered under my homeowners. I got to say, I told you so. 

Dennis Stowers  15:10

Property goes into effect, you know, basically what we do is, you know, if there's just general liability, we normally can quote that right over the phone, and send you the forms and application to fill out which takes two minutes. And you just put on there, whatever day you want it to go into effect today, tomorrow, whatever. And if everything's on that app, once we get it back, we'll send you a confirmation that the coverage is in force, then it usually takes about a week or so before they actually get a policy number and put it all together and we'll send you the policy with formal confirmation of the policy.

Dennis Stowers  15:44

Show dog people, they usually travel with dog crates that are worth seven to $1,000 apiece, they have grooming equipment, they have a little bag trimmers and scissors, and some of those scissors are $500 apiece, and they take them to the dog, show them in a bag, somebody walks by picks the bag up, and they lose a couple $1,000 of scissors or whatever. That all can be insured under a business owners policy. We insure the contents and it's anywhere in the United States while it's in transit, temporarily located elsewhere, there's coverage there. Liability, liabilities covered anywhere in the United States, Canada, Puerto Rico. So if you were a talk show person, don't lose any go off premises, but if you do go off premises where you go show a dog someplace and keep people out of your kennel facility, you have the same liability at that place as you do in your backyard or at your kennel. Same thing with show dog people, when they're at a dog show if their dog bites somebody at the dog show they have the same liability there as they have at their home kennel. Same thing with the hunting the dog people at the field trials, etc. Mortality, here's the one thing, it's hard, if not impossible, but when you have a dog kennel, we have policies that cover animals in your care, custody and control. So a boarding kennel, a doggy daycare, a board training operation, Labrador Retriever guys that transporting dogs, appointing dogs, of course, they'll have clients' dogs, and we insure those clients' dogs while they're there. The one problem is that in a breeding situation, is you've got your stock, those dogs are not covered as property, not covered under the animal bailee coverage because they're owned by you. There is a way you can insure them, and you can insure them on your contents. The coverages under contents, if you look at a policy, are so limited, that most of the time I tell people I'd rather steal your wallet then sell you insurance under a property policy to cover your stock. However, we do have mortality insurance and mortality insurance is life insurance. There's two ways that you can write life insurance. There's the limited mortality, which I would call an accidental death policy, covers animals, it excludes death by sickness, okay, so if a dog was stolen, accidentally attacked by wild animals, gets hit by a car in transit, gets involved in a collision, those are the types of things that that limited mortality policy will cover. Most of the time, we use that for the Sporting Dog people, the pointers, the retrievers, squirrel dogs, coon dogs, any Sporting Dog usually go with the limited. The full mortality is a life insurance just like you and I would die for ourselves. It covers death by sickness, including all the coverages under the limited. It's a little expensive, it runs about $7 per $100 of value. And if you want well being included in there, it runs about $9 per $100 of value. We use that program primarily for therapy dogs, diabetic alert dogs that families buy for their kids, service dogs, working dogs, the bed bug detection dogs, drug dogs, those are the people that look at the full mortality stock dogs, the stock dog industry is huge out there. And we write the majority of all the stock dogs in the United States under the full mortality. 

Dennis Stowers  19:38

So that's a separate policy and those dogs have to be at least six months old before you can buy it. After that, it's fairly easy. It's an application and we have to send it into an underwriter and have the dog approved before we can issue the policy but usually that takes anywhere from two days to a week depending on how many apps they get in per week. Multiservice breeders, trainers, groomers, that type of stuff. So if you breed dogs, groom dogs, you definitely want to have a general liability policy number one for people coming on and off the premises. You definitely want to have animals in your care, custody and control. So while you're grooming a dog, he jumps off the bench and breaks his leg, they're going to hold you responsible. That's what our animal bailee covers, it covers the injury to the dog. And anytime you have a dog that's hurt, it's in your care, custody and control. Those people know that you're going to be paying the vet bill, so they will try everything possible to save old Fluffy. We see more vet bills over $10,000 than we actually like to most of the time when we talk to pet sitters, dog walkers, the onesie twosie dog trainers, the people that do the onesie twosie board in your home, always suggest that they carry the $25,000 limit which I would consider the minimum nowadays in the dog industry. 

Dennis Stowers  21:02

Examples of something that's covered by insurance versus not covered, of course, we went into that with your own dogs, there's a situation where you don't have coverage for them, unless you buy a mortality policy. We don't do health insurance, we've been asked to do health insurance and just haven't been able to coordinate the health insurance into our program. It's always a separate company. So you can buy health insurance. If you Google pet sitter pet insurance on Google, there's 100 and some companies out there that offer it and I'm not really familiar with it, I don't know who the best is or how it works. You can do it on your own on that one. 

Dennis Stowers  21:44

Things that aren't covered by insurance, of course, your own personal dogs, if you have puppies in there that aren't sold, and not yet delivered, of course, they would be considered owned dogs, that would be something that would be excluded. Usually with a business owners policy, you know, you have fire, lightning, windstorm and hail and all that kind of stuff. Usually you have loss of income on a business owner's policy, you have a lot of bells and whistles for valuable papers, stuff like that, you automatically get that coverage. Coverage for your animals in your care, custody and control. So you take care of your clients, animals whose puppies that are sold, but not yet delivered. 

Dennis Stowers  22:21

Workers Compensation, not very many breeders have employees, but if you do have employees, there are state laws which regulate workers comp. So most times every state in the union with exception, I think in Texas, requires you to carry workers compensation on employees. Getting insurance for your program, just talk to an insurance agent, I guess. Usually an independent agent is probably your best bet. They have a number of carriers. It's somewhat limited to the number of companies that do the dog industry. We have three or four of them in our office, and we quote them out depending on what the risk is, because sometimes the Hartford doesn't like to do pet sitters, dog walkers, they'll do dog trainers, they'll do breeders. Travelers will not do a dog trainer, they'll do a pet sitter, dog walker. So every carrier’s got their own little appetite of what they want to write and what they don't want to write. So that's kind of our job to know what is good will work and what won't work. So we don't waste a lot of time, of our time, your time and their time, but you definitely want to talk to somebody and tell them what your situation is, you know what you're doing, how you're doing it, etc. And let them ask them questions so they can design a program that's going to meet your exposures that you have, you know, like the LLC question, you know, hey, we're running an LLC, we run in our backyard. Now, I'm not insured as an individual property owner because my homeowner's exclusive. One of the most important. The other one is, how's your building? How back insured? Well, it's insured under my homeowners. Yeah, it is. If you keep your car and your lawn mower and as soon as you do something that's commercial in it, it's automatically excluded. The problem with that is that most people don't realize that until the claims adjuster comes out and says, Oh, I see the wind blew the roof off. What do you do inside? Well, it's a grooming shop, he'll go to page 35 in your homeowners and say it's excluded because it's a business property. And you walk out the door and you're stuck with buying a new roof for that building. That's happened many times. We've had a lot of calls after a loss. They go ooh, you know, we just had a loss and that building's not covered under our homeowners than we insured under a business owners policy. So that's pretty much the program. 

Nicole Engelman  24:49

Well, thank you so much for walking us through all that was super helpful information. I think it's time for some questions from our community because I'm sure they have many, so I'm going to start with our previously submitted ones. So our first question is from Lori. And she said, I've put a lot of money into certain dogs, acquisition fees, training towards titling, health testing, some have titles or points towards championships. What can be done to protect my business assets? If one or more of these dogs is injured? Or dies, most handlers make you sign a release form, so they aren't held liable if something should happen?

Dennis Stowers  25:27

Okay, so if it's an owned dog, then you'd want to look at two ways. Look at a medical health plan for it. That'd be one. The second would be looking at a mortality policy, whether you'd want limited or the full mortality. That is about the only way you can protect your asset on owned dogs. If they are owned by somebody else, and you're showing them or you're handling the dogs, then you want to make sure that you have general liability policy, of course, with the animal bailee coverage in there that covers animals in your care, custody and control, that covers non owned dogs for both medical door death. Now, those policies don't cover death by sickness. So if the dog gets Parvo, kennel cough, heartworm, whatever, there isn't any carrier out there that offers animal bailee that will cover death by sickness. The only way you can get death by sickness is a full mortality policy. That's the way you would land on dogs for mortality, health insurance policy, non owned dogs, you want to go with the animal bailee under your business policy.

Nicole Engelman  26:41

Awesome. All right, for our next question is from Lisa. And she is wondering, why would a small hobby breeder need insurance?

Dennis Stowers  26:50

Well, you know, if you breed one or two litters a year, I mean, the thing is, is that your homeowner's carrier, if somebody came to the house and got injured, basically, your exposure is very minimal when you do that. But if somebody comes on the property, you get hurt, a kid gets bit by the mother dog, whatever, you know, that type of stuff that is going to be excluded under your homeowner's policy. If the dogs are being used for business purposes. If you're just a regular homeowner and you own a pet dog bites somebody, of course, your homeowner's policy will pay for that under the personal liability. But there could be a problem with that if you're running like a small breeding operation that your homeowner's carrier might pull that business pursuits endorsement and say, hey, you are selling dogs, you're trying to make a profit off this litter, you know, we're going to exclude it and not represent you. So to be safe, I still would buy a comprehensive general liability, because the thing is, you can't rely on your homeowners policy for that. Because after the fact they can say no, it's not covered. If you call them, then you run into the situation where, hey, you're running a dog breeding operation. And quite frankly, homeowners carriers, a third of all of their liability losses come from dog bites. And not so much right now, but in the past, homeowners asked the questions, hey, what kind of dog do you own? How many do you have, et cetera, et cetera, and a lot of those homeowner's carriers back then, they were excluding, you know, the pit bulls or Rottweilers, the Dobermans, the German Shepherds. So that has not been a problem here lately, but they still are kind of anti dog if you want to use that term. So don't take a chance. I wouldn't, because the homeowners carriers don't like any business exposure whatsoever they cancel.

Nicole Engelman  28:48

Definitely better to be safe than sorry, in that instance, I think. 

Dennis Stowers  28:52

You got it. 

Nicole Engelman  28:54

This next question is from Priscilla. And she's wondering if I'm not a dog transporter, but I may have someone else's dog in my vehicle, at some point, say taking them in public for training or picking them up for grooming, do I need to have special insurance for transportation?

Dennis Stowers  29:10

Normally, under an animal bailee coverage, no matter who you buy it from, when it covers animals while they're on the premises, while they're off the premises, and while they're in transit. So that is where you're going to find the coverage. So you would actually have coverage while in transit for the dogs. Our show dog people, they're always you know, every weekend, they're headed off someplace while they're in transit or the Sporting Dog people, take them to field trials and all that. So we cover them while they're at the kennel, while they're in transit while they're away from the premises. So that's what you want to do is make sure you have an animal bailee coverage, and that covers you while in transit coverage.

Nicole Engelman  29:54

And as a follow up to that, I know many breeders in our community use resources like flight nanny to transport puppies to their new homes or on the ground transportation as well to bring their puppies to buyers. So would that also fall under what you just discussed for transportation? 

Dennis Stowers  30:11

Okay, here's what happens. Okay, so you have animal bailee coverage. And if you deliver the dog and while it's in transit, something happens to it, it would be covered under the animal bailee coverage. Once you give that dog to somebody else, you've lost possession. So now it's going to be the transporting company that is responsible. We do transport companies, but quite frankly, we haven't had a whole lot of luck with them loss wise. Some are fine, we never hear from them, they do their thing. But there's a lot of them that stuff happens and it's just stupidity. So if you're gonna give a dog to somebody, you want to make sure that you're giving it to a transport company that knows what they're doing. And I would get some type of certificate from them that shows they have animal bailee, because once you can give that, it's like a dry cleaner, you take a leather coat to the dry cleaner, while it's at the dry cleaners, if something happens to it, he has coverage for it. But once he sends it out to the leather cleaner, then the leather cleaner is responsible, and not the dry cleaner. So that's how you have to look at it. So once you give it to somebody to do, it's like a lot of times where we have dog trainers that use kennels.  Once you take that dog and you put it in somebody else's kennel, you want to make sure that that kennel has animal bailee coverage, because now that dog is in their possession and not yours. So that's one thing that you want to make darn sure is that that transport company has coverage for your dogs while they're in their care. And for how much? 

Nicole Engelman  31:50

Thank you. I think this actually might be our last question that we have for you. And you might have answered it already. So please feel free to just either regurgitate the answer. If there's anything you want to add to it. This one's from Mary who said can you address the insurance need if the breeder is also a trainer? Is there a separate policy required and any difference if the training is done away from the home property?

Dennis Stowers  32:14

Usually you would write one policy for that. And it would include the training exposure and the breeding exposure. You write the liability under a policy called a comprehensive general liability policy. In rare, rare occasions, they'll be what they call premises only coverage, but in most cases, 99.9% that general liability policy covers you anywhere in the United States, Canada, Puerto Rico, and US territories. So wherever you go, that liability goes, we follow you around like your shadow on a sunny day. Training the dogs and breeding dogs, it goes back to kind of like, a good example is our Labrador Retriever people. They breed dogs, okay, and they sell puppies. And then that puppy goes to the new owner. And once that puppy reaches a certain age, a lot of those people bring that dog back. And that's how he makes his money by training that puppy for those people. He trains it, gives it back, then he'll take that dog off premises, he'll run it. A lot of times, they'll just have your dog in the run and field trials, all that kind of stuff. So he's actually a breeder, and he's a trainer. Wherever he goes, we go, wherever the dog goes, and not owned dog while it's in your possession at your house. In transit away from the premises, it's going to be covered under the animal bailee coverage.

Nicole Engelman  33:41

Perfect. Thank you for answering that one. I think that is actually the last question we have for you. So thank you so much for joining us today and teaching us all about breeding insurance. It is, I know super helpful for our community, they've been asking for something like this for a very long time. So we cannot thank you enough for being here. 

Dennis Stowers  34:00

That's what we do all day long.

Nicole Engelman  34:01

Thank you so much to all of our attendees for asking such amazing questions, and for joining us today for another breeding business focused webinar. If you have not yet joined our community, we would absolutely love to have you join at gooddog.com/join. So you can join many more events like this in the future. So thank you all so much, again for being here. Thank you, Dennis, for your time. So that wraps up this week's episode of The Good Dog Pod. We hope you learned a lot from this and that it will be a helpful resource for you and your programs in the future. Thank you again for tuning in and joining us for another episode of this podcast and we'll see you right back here on April 17 For our next episode.  Thank you for listening to the Good Dog Pod. We'll be back in two weeks with another episode so be sure to subscribe to the Good Dog Pod on your favorite podcast platform.