Episode 45: Breed Showcase: The Shetland Sheepdog

This week, Laura Reeves is at the Shetland Sheepdog Club of America National Specialty, in Albany, Oregon. Laura is joined by a group of Shetland Sheepdog lovers who spend the episode talking about the very fun breed. 

What makes a Shetland Sheepdog a great pet? Shelties are a beautiful breed, they are smart, intelligent, easy to clean and to train, and always willing to please. They are the perfect sized dog, and are fancy for their size. They are greatly adaptable: they can live in an apartment or in a farm - they are completely content with where you choose to put them. 

Who would not be a really good owner for a Shetland Sheepdog? If someone is interested in an extremely aggressive dog, or a guard dog, Shelties may not be the best fit. 

Shetland Sheepdogs are a vocal breed. They bark when they have a reason to bark. They aren’t recreational barkers, they bark for what they need to bark over and then they stop. 

Moving on to the health side of the breed. Shelties, comparatively, are healthy. There are not a ton of health issues, although they do have problems that can arise, just like all dogs. Eyes and heart are the primary health concerns. 

To find out more about this non-mainstream breed, head over to the episode!

Transcript

Laura Reeves [0:40] Welcome to the Good Dog Pod! I am your host, Laura Reeves, and we are at the Shetland Sheepdog Club of America National Specialty in Albany, Oregon, with a fabulous Love the Breeds interview. I am so excited. I have this table full of people to talk about a very, very fun breed. So, welcome, everyone. We’re going to go around the table and introduce ourselves. Go! 

Jennie Hynes [1:05] I’m Jennie Hynes from Wilton, Connecticut. I’m a second generation Sheltie breeder. I’ve been involved for 40+ years. 

Dr. Victor Stora [1:17] Dr. Victor Stora. I’ve been in Shelties for about 5 years. I’m a veterinary geneticist and reproduction specialist. 

Jessica Starbuck [1:23] I am Jessica Starbuck. I’m from Brooksville, Florida. I’ve been in Shelties for about 30 years now. 

Laura Reeves [1:29] You just won a ribbon; I saw it. 

Kate Hynes [1:33] I’m Kate Hynes. I’m from Wilton, Connecticut. I’ve been in Shelties probably about 10 years. 

Laura Reeves [1:40] How old are you?

Kate Hynes [1:40] I’m 17.

Laura Reeves [1:42] And do you participate in junior showmanship? 

Kate Hynes [1:44] Yes. 

Jennie Hynes [1:46] She’s third generation.

Kate Hynes [1:47] I’m Jennie’s daughter.

Laura Reeves [1:50] Here we go! Now we’re getting some connectivity here. 

Natalie Higher [1:52] I’m Natalie Higher from Sterling, Virginia. I’ve been in Shelties for about two and a half years, but I was in sporting dogs before.

Kate Growalski [2:04] I’m Kate Growalski. I’ve been in Shelties for 15 years, and I’m from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. 

Cheryl Critzer [2:08] I’m Cheryl Critzer. I’ve been in Brittanies 27 years and in Shelties 2. 

Chris Machado [2:10] I’m Chris Machado. I’ve been in Shelties for 40+ years.

Laura Reeves [2:19] Wonderful! This is an incredibly great group of people to talk about a very fun and very popular little breed. What is it that makes a Shetland Sheepdog a great pet or companion? Why did you get a Shetland Sheepdog? Everybody, go one at a time. 

Jennie Hynes [2:33] I just think Shelties are the best breed. I guess I didn’t have a lot of choice, because my mom bred them before I was born. But in a way, I did because when I got to be where I was old enough to show, she did give me the choice of having a few other breeds. But I ultimately went back and joined into my mom’s breeding program. I just think they’re a beautiful breed. They’re smart, intelligent, clean, easy to train, willing to please, and I just think that Shelties spoil you for other breeds. 

Laura Reeves [3:00] Good size, I think. Who’s next? 

Dr. Victor Stora [3:05] So I got a Sheltie not by will. My uncle had one, and he didn’t want it anymore, so he gave it to us. That bloomed into what it is now. When I was an undergrad, I snuck two dogs from my breeder back home. Now it’s 15 of them. It’s just bloomed from there. I like the size. They’re fancy for their size. You don’t really see that often. 

Jessica Starbuck [3:30] They’re a nice little hardy breed and very intelligent and eager to please. It makes them all the fun to live with. And they’re athletic animals, so you can go and take them on a run and they’re just as good. You can hang out in your apartment with them. 

Laura Reeves [3:44] Okay, good. Third generation, you really didn’t have any options, did you?

Kate Hynes [3:46] Well, both my sisters got different breeds actually. But I wanted a Husky, and my mom said no. So I got a Sheltie for my seventh birthday, and I don’t regret having one at all. I want to carry on the Shelties. I might have one or two breeds along the way, but mainly I want to have Shelties, just because I think they’re great pets.

Laura Reeves [4:06] I love that. Future of our sport, right here! Good job, mom. Who’s next? You’re new, right?

Natalie Higher [4:12] I’m new. I worked for a sporting dog handler for a long time and then I got into the Shelties about two and a half years ago. They stole me. It’s like a tug of war. 

Laura Reeves [4:22] Which sporting breed? Am I going to cry here?

Natalie Higher [4:24] Springers. I was a Springer handler for a long time, but I just bred my first litter with Jennie. I co-bred with Jennie, so that was awesome. They’re smart. They’re versatile. They’re adaptable. And they have enough hair that you can play with, but not too much. No regrets. No going back. 

Kate Growalski [4:45] My favorite thing is how adaptable they are. I’ve had them most of my life and in several different capacities, but I live in an apartment now and my Sheltie is completely happy with that. They can live in an apartment, they can live in a farm—they’re just completely content with wherever you choose to put them. 

Cheryl Critzer [5:02] They’re kind of the comedian. I got one that we used to do handling class with and, as a puppy, he would go around the room and at the end of class, we have to mop up every time we’re done. He would ride the mop around! So when we first got here, the first day, he’s bouncing and the guy says, “I’m just mopping. Is he afraid of the mop?” I said, “No.” He said, “Well, he can come see it.” I let him out. He’s 2 years old. He goes and stands on the mop, and he goes and runs down the aisle on top of the mop. 

Laura Reeves [5:31] That’s fabulous. Forty years, you stuck with it! 

Chris Machado [5:35] I never had another dog. I really had never had a dog. My mom’s two uncles raised English Setters in Worcester, Massachusetts. They had big kennels with fencing, and my mom felt that a dog didn’t belong in the city. We didn’t really live in the city, but in Massachusetts, they don’t have any fences. So she thought it was just ridiculous to have a dog that could get hit by snow plows. We were allowed to have an indoor cat, and that was it. When I got married, my husband (of course) wanted a dog. My best friend’s mom bought my best friend and I each—I had Hansel and she had Gretel. He was a tri from two famous kennels, and she was a sable. We had them for years. From there, I met a really top handler. I called her one day out of the paper, because I had this Hansel and I wanted to breed him. It was Pepper. She’s like, “This is going to take a long time. I’m watching the football game. Call me tomorrow and you’ll come out and meet me and see.” Because she wanted to see this dog. She said, “He’s really not a bad dog! But he shouldn’t be bred. But you can start going to the shows with me,” and so I did. That was that. 

Laura Reeves [7:01] I love this. We’re going to have to add a piece on this about mentorship and the family in that; it splits out into a whole other thing.

Chris Machado [7:07] I did fix her up with my brother-in-law! They did get married! And she is still married to him to this day. 

Laura Reeves [7:15] Oh my god. That is so fabulous! Only dogs can bring us this kind of life. It’s one of the things that I love about purebred dogs, right? We have—all of us—these connections. Great size, great personality, all of those things. What are the drawbacks? Who would not be a really good owner for a Shetland Sheepdog? Any ideas? Everybody should have a Sheltie?!

[7:40] They’re so adaptable, so whatever your lifestyle is… 

[7:43] I mean, somebody that wants an aggressive dog or a guard dog—although, behind a fence or behind a wall, they think they’re something else. And then when you open the fence or the door, they would be like, “Oh. What did I say?” But I mean, really, for a dog to ward off somebody that you wouldn’t want coming into your house or whatever, they’re perfectly fine for that. But I mean, I would think that somebody wanting more of a showpiece for aggression wouldn’t be an ideal owner for any dog. They would probably not want a Sheltie. 

[8:17] Or somebody that’s going to brush it more than once a week. It’s very minimal grooming. 

Laura Reeves [8:21] You do have to brush them. 

[8:23] But not even really that often. If they have correct coat, they really don’t mat. They almost shed off the dirt in a lot of ways. But if you want an absolute pristine house with no hair at all—and they don’t shed constantly, like some breeds—but if you really can’t deal with any hair loss then perhaps not. But they make up for it in so many other ways. 

Laura Reeves [8:45] Talk to me about their talking. They are a vocal breed. How do we feel about that? Is that something that you hear from owners, that it’s too much? Or they’re quiet? You have an apartment—yours is good? 

Kate Growalski [8:57] Well, mine’s C-BARQ’ed. 

Laura Reeves [9:02] Softened. 

[9:04] But the thing of it is is that people read that they bark a lot. I have people ask me, “Do they bark a lot?” And I say, “Well, they bark if there’s a reason to bark.” If they’re in here, they’re just not walking around barking. That’s what people think. And then when you say to people, “If somebody knocks on your door or your post guy comes and they hear something, they’re going to bark at that,” and then they think, “Oh, well, that’s different than what I thought.” But what the difference is, I think, between this breed and some other breeds is that if you had a Dalmation or Lab, they would think, “Oh, that’s the trash guy. He comes every Tuesday. He has been coming every Tuesday for two years, so I’m not going to bark at him,” whereas a Sheltie, every Tuesday, is like, “The trash guy’s here! The trash guy’s here!” That’s the difference. 

[9:45] Celebration! 

[9:47] I had one in an apartment, when I first got mine. (We have a house now.) But because he was the only dog, he didn’t bark as often. Now he has a friend, so they—

Laura Reeves [9:56] Talk to each other? 

[9:58] When you let him out of his crate, he’s like, “Oh my god! I’m so happy to see you!” And he barks out of joy? 

[10:03] They bark when there’s a reason, but they don’t bark constantly. 

[10:05] They’re not recreational barkers. 

[10:07] And they don’t carry on. They bark over what they feel the need to bark over, and then they stop. It’s not like they continually bark. 

[10:13] I think some that have incorrect temperament might bark more, but most of us are not going to tolerate that kind of temperament and therefore will not breed it.

Laura Reeves [10:23] Once again, how important is it to get a Sheltie from a good, responsible, ethical breeder? Because that is an important piece of it! I think that’s what we were trying to get across—that this is important, and this is why. This breeder right here (or this one, or this one) isn’t going to produce a dog with a temperament that’s going to be yackity-yackity-yackity. 

[10:48] These things do come up. It’s in the breed, whether it’s correct or incorrect. It’s in there, so you’re going to see it every once in a while, but you’re going to try not to perpetuate that.

[10:57] What I notice that’s always cracked me up: I don’t debark my dogs. They barely ever bark. But I don’t encourage. You know when dogs bark and people go, “SHH!” or “Quiet!” The dog doesn’t know what you’re saying, but you’re answering every time it barks. So it thinks it should be doing this. I just ignore the barking. I’ve never told them to shut up or anything. They bark when somebody drives up to the house or comes to the door. They might bark if I come into the kennel, but I don’t really have a barking problem. 

Laura Reeves [11:35] Absolutely. How you interact with your dog is definitely going to have bearing on that! 

[11:39] And some people really like the fact that they answer and they bark, and they do encourage it. I’ve actually told a couple of people that are top breeders, “I’m on the phone with you. You’re telling these dogs to shut up 20 times. What do they do if you just don’t say anything?” They don’t know what to say. They’re like, “Well, mine bark.” I’m like, “Well, mine don’t!” I think you’re encouraging the barking by answering them every time they bark. 

Laura Reeves [12:09] Absolutely. Beautiful. Well, we have our veterinarian here. We’re going to definitely go down this road. Talk to us. This is a pretty healthy little breed. What do we have for health issues to work with? 

Dr. Victor Stora [12:20] A main reason that I did continue with Shelties was, comparatively, they are healthy. There are not a ton of health issues. You’re not really worried that every puppy that comes out, you’re going to have to screen for significant issues. They do have problems that can arise. 

Laura Reeves [12:37] They all do.

Dr. Victor Stora [12:38] We scrutinize the eyes a lot and the heart a lot. For the most part, I have stayed with this because they are healthy. 

Laura Reeves [12:46] They live forever, don’t they? 

Dr. Victor Stora [12:47] They can. Sixteen is not uncommon. 

Laura Reeves [12:51] Wow. Very, very cool. So eyes are pretty much your primary concern. A little bit of heart. Okay. Not terrible-bad! And again, they live forever. Who was I talking to? Did you know Laotians live forever? Like, 16-18. 

Natalie Higher [13:10] Not even the longevity, but the quality of the veterans’ classes in this breed, I think, is unique, too. Coming into Shelties, the older ones are some of the most beautiful ones. 

Laura Reeves [13:22] I’ve seen that in other herding breeds actually, that you see a lot of quality as the dogs age. 

[13:29] You can easily see a 10-year-old that really can still function like a dog with less age on them and doesn’t look like an archaic dog. Some of these breeds lose color and that kind of thing. 

Laura Reeves [13:41] What about the teeth?

[13:42] I think the teeth probably require more care than anything on the dog. 

Laura Reeves [13:50] Interesting. So, they need cleaning. Their teeth need cleaning.

[13:52] I don’t like dirty teeth! Who is really good at cleaning teeth? (And she is better than most vets!) Pat. 

Laura Reeves [14:00] Staying on top of dental care. 

[14:04] Yes, and I like to have clean teeth. One thing that bothers me—I don’t even like to touch dogs that have a gross mouth—I think it shortens their life. 

Laura Reeves [14:15] Definitely. Our veterinarian will tell us.

Dr. Victor Stora [14:19] I mean, yeah. We know that dental issues can lead to systemic body issues. Just like every dog you have, you should be brushing their teeth every other day if you want to maintain a quality and avoid periodontal disease. They can build up tartar a little bit faster than some breeds, but as long as you’re staying on top of it, it’s not as significant. I know a lot of the bigger breeds will say, “We give them bones to clean their teeth.” It doesn’t always work. Daily brushing is definitely the best. 

Laura Reeves [14:49] Good, good! I can remember when I was a little kid and I started in 4-H. The girl that always beat me in 4-H had a Sheltie. Left me with a real problem with the breed! One of the things that I would love for you guys to talk about is the adaptability but the trainability. They can do anything. So, some of the things that you do with them? Some of the games that you can play with Shelties? Our junior handler?

Kate Hynes [15:15] I mean, I think they’re just so eager to please. I’m actually a senior in high school right now. I’m starting my senior independent study in three weeks, and I’m training the shelties in agility. I’m training one to be a therapy dog. I’ve planned this all out. That’s what we have to do before we leave for it. You can really train them in pretty much anything. That’s my goal. And to do tricks and agility and therapy dog training on a fair amount of them. They’re so eager to please, and they’re so motivated by food and snacks and treats. 

Laura Reeves [15:52] I just did an interview actually with a Sheltie breeder, Tammy Van Deusen, that does herding. She was talking about the farm test. Does anybody here do any of those farm tests? tThey sounded so cool! I wanted to talk to somebody else that did them. 

Dr. Victor Stora [16:06] I’ve done some with mine. I walked into this farm trial with my little blue merle Sheltie, and they had Aussies on leashes lunging at sheep. And then it’s my turn. Border Collie lost it trying to go into the pen. So I asked, “Do I put him on the long line?” She said, “It’s not going to hurt anybody. Just let him go.” So I let him go, and he started actually doing it all on his own. There is that instinct. He had a little flock together, and he ran by and bit me once, and then he ran by again. Because he was just so much energy! So excited! 

[16:44] Which one was that?

Dr. Victor Stora [16:45] Troy. 

Laura Reeves [16:46] You talk about the instinct, and this goes a little bit to how they are to live with. I have encountered this with Corgis. They herd you. Do they herd you? Do Shelties do that?

[16:56] One hundred percent. 

Dr. Victor Stora [17:00] At family parties, I’ll watch people slowly get closer and closer and closer together in these little groups, and it’s because he’s behind you. 

[17:07] Sometimes people will come over, and they’re not dog people. I was shocked. One of mine who never does anything (it’s like the biggest dullard) started nipping at the guy’s heels. He was carrying all this stuff up in the house, and I don’t know what brought it out, but they just are natural herders. 

Laura Reeves [17:27] Right. So the nipping part—that’s something you need to be aware of, right? If you own a Sheltie, the dog is going to herd your children. 

[17:34] I’ve heard that before. When people call, a lot of times these trainers will tell them, “Don’t get one of those. They’ll herd your children” or whatever. It’s more incorporated into play. I have a couple that will grab my ankles, but they’re real careful.

[17:50] They don’t break skin or anything!

[17:53] They just kind of mouth. 

[17:56] They’ll grab your pant leg a little bit. 

[17:58] More of a playing thing, but it’s not anything. I think sometimes when people that are interested hear from a trainer or somebody that’s marketing themselves as a breed expert or whatever and they say that, and it scares people. But it’s not really like that. These dogs are really athletic outside, very interested in being engaged with you outside, but then when they come in, they’re just relaxed. They want to be in the same room as you, and they’ll greet you, but then they usually just go somewhere in the room and lay down. 

Laura Reeves [18:25] So a little more independent, actually. 

[18:28] Independent, but they’re calm. And they want to be in the same room with you, but they’re not needy. They don’t want to be right next to you or be in your lap. They’ll almost always just lay down in the room where you are, and then if you move rooms, within 5 minutes, the dog (I don’t know what it is; a sixth sense about the person leaving the room or whatever) will wake up, follow you to the next room, greet you, and just lay down in the room with you. What I love about them is they’re so much fun outside, and they’re so engaging, but then they come in and they’re not in the middle of the floor where you’re knocking into them. 

Laura Reeves [19:03] I was going to go to our sporting dog people. 

[19:03] My tracker had to be in my lap. If I was in his vicinity, he would pace around, and then I would sit down and he would be in my lap at all times. The Springers are like that, too. The Sheltie—he’ll poke me with his nose. He’ll come up behind and poke me: “What are you doing? What are you doing?” And then the same thing. I’ll move into a room, and he’ll lay down in the corner and keep an eye on me. If I move, he’ll follow. It’s not clingy at all. They want to be with you but not on top of you like the sporting dogs do.

[19:33] The Burnese are a totally different beast. 

Cheryl Critzer [19:34] The Burnese are food-motivated. Shelties—food motivated. But here’s the difference: my Brittanies, I have kennels. They see a cookie, they jump in their kennel, they get the cookie. You turn around, you have the same cookie, you’re looking at the same kennel. You have this Sheltie that looks at you like, “That cookie means I go away, so I’m going to stay right here, and if you come close, I’m going to go run in circles, play, what I want to do. And then we’ll think about going where you want to go.” It is very much a breed that is super smart. There are now tools. A lot of us breeders have boxes or puzzle boxes for puppies so they can climb over things, under things. But now (even on Amazon) you have these things that are toys made of plastic where you can put the food inside them and then they have to move a bar to be able to get to it.

Laura Reeves [20:25] Food puzzles! I think those are fabulous. I use them on the Wirehairs all the time.  

Kate Hynes [20:31] This kind of goes along with it. They’re so smart, and that helps them be adaptable because I’m still in college, and I’ll take my Sheltie to school, like when I’m studying in a classroom. She totally understands the appropriate behavior. She won’t be hyper there. She’ll go in the corner and lay down. It just makes it a lot easier to take them different places with you. 

Laura Reeves [20:52] Because they’re able to assess?

Kate Hynes [20:54] Exactly. They can evaluate how they should behave in a situation and how other people are behaving. 

[21:00] I love the fact: they are the best mothers. 

Laura Reeves [21:05] Oh, really?

[21:04] I can honestly say I don’t think I’ve ever had a bad mother. 

Laura Reeves [21:10] Nice! No C-sections? 

[21:14] Knock on wood! I never have had a C-section. Hopefully I won’t. Even young ones with their first litter (not too young), they just get it. They’re calm—even ones you think might not be calm, they’re calm. That makes such a huge difference.

[21:31] I keep every litter in my bedroom, and I have my room at like 85. I just really look forward to it. I love. Everybody’s like, “Aren’t you hot?” I’m like, “No, it’s just for a week!” To keep them really warm. I went to this seminar once, many years ago, and I remember this guy was world-famous. I forget his name, but he was at the University of Michigan. He said, “Most puppies die because they get cold.” Whether this was true or not, it made a huge impression on me. He said, “If it’s 80 degrees or above, they don’t get herpes. They don’t get anything.” So I got the state-of-the-art electric heater and ran it in my room. I just really enjoy watching them with the puppies. If it’s warm, I can leave the front open and see what they’re up to. I really enjoy having the puppies—

Laura Reeves [22:27] They’re super, duper cute!

[22:30] People are like, “That must be so much work!” But I just love it. It’s fun. 

Laura Reeves [22:34] It is. Alright, so the last thing, then, when we’re talking about conformation: we’re going to give a little bit extra for the extra people who are interested in maybe participating in conformation and junior showmanship and what have you. What is your ideal mind-picture? Somebody give me a mind-picture. Your beautiful dog.

[22:55] Obviously I just think beautiful angles and a nice, strong neck and a beautiful expression. That’s kind of what our breed is really known for: beautiful eyes and sweet face. It just all kind of goes together. 

Laura Reeves [23:10] And a good size is very important, right? You have a height DQ? 

[23:15] The standard is 13-16 inches. 

Laura Reeves [23:19] There we go. So when people are looking at maybe buying a Sheltie, and they want to make sure they’re getting a good one from a good breeder that they might consider showing, you want to make sure you’re looking at a good, proper size.

[23:30] I’ve had people call me and say, “My neighbor—they think it’s a Sheltie, but it’s not a Sheltie.” It’s probably a Sheltie, and if any breeder tells you they don’t get the big ones, they do. It’s just in the breed. It just pops up.

Laura Reeves [23:50] So here’s a good question: history! Give us the history lesson on Shelties. Somebody give me the Sheltie history 101: where the breed started, why it started. Where’d they come from? 

[24:00] The Yakki dog I think was the first, the little one on the Shetland Islands. But I like to tell the story. This is how it was told to me: that during World War II, some of the breeders that weren’t being watched so closely crossed with Collies. I’d used to get these gigantic—I mean, they were huge—and people would take them to the vet, and the vet would say, “This is not a Sheltie! This is a mutt.” So I’d have to call the vet up and go, “Both of the parents of that dog that you’re saying is not a Sheltie are Champions. There was evidence of the Collie cross, and that’s what you’re seeing.” 

Laura Reeves [24:44] You do think in the history of the breed, that there was some of that crossing? 

[24:48] There is. They used to set the type of the breed. 

Laura Reeves [24:51] Okay, so it’s not necessarily a bred-down-from-a-Collie sort of concept, but that was in there. 

[24:56] No, it was crossed. I was told when people weren’t looking and—I guess I can say it—Nate Levine bred to Collies. I think they had Collies, too. That kind of set more of the modern-day type. 

[25:15] But with that, you get the Collie bloodlines. Beagles have been bred to Beagles for hundreds and hundreds of years, and our dogs have been bred to Collies as they were developing the breed. Our breed is a relatively young breed, so we get these throwback genes every once in a while that are there. Some people—”I like the sturdy Sheltie. I don’t like the little, tiny Sheltie. We love big Shelties,” or “We love little Shelties,” or whatever—the best thing to do if you really want to show a dog, you want to start going to dog shows. It’s unlikely that you can just call a breeder and say, “Hey! I think I’ll just start showing your dog,” because they’re going to say, “I’ll sell you a show dog,” and you’re going to come and say, “That’s a lot of work. And this is kind of boring. And this is whatever,” and then we’ll never see them again. Off goes the one show dog or whatever that we have. It’s kind of a survival of the fittest. Whoever sticks around the long enough. 

Laura Reeves [26:09] I love that, actually. I love that description! 

[26:11] It’s kind of true because all of us that have been doing this a really long time have heard the story every single time. “Oh yeah, I’m going to have show dogs and I’m going to go to dog shows” and “My kid wants to…” blah blah blah. Just like anything, it just goes on. Which is fine. It’s an individual decision. But we don’t want you taking our prized. With Shelties, you don’t often get a lot, more than one or two. 

Laura Reeves [26:33] What’s your litter size, typically? 

[26:36] Four to six, I’d say. Average. They don’t necessarily breed true, so you might breed two of the best Shelties ever together, and you get nothing really show quality or exceptional. 

[26:50] They’re just kind of… dogs. 

[26:51] I thought that was going to work out better! 

[26:53] I was just telling somebody about how I had these two dogs that didn’t have good rears, and I bred them together, and I got like the best litter I’ve ever had! They all had good rears! 

[27:07] So sometimes you might get, on rare occasions, two or three in a litter that are show quality. But sometimes you only get that one. You’re not going to necessarily take a chance on somebody that just says, “Hey, this seems like something I’d like to do.” So, yeah, you’re going to have to start out with a pet or start out with an obedience dog or something. Once people start seeing you around, then might get a chance at something. 

Laura Reeves [27:30] Mentorship. 

[27:32] This is a long-term sport. Really. If you want to be successful in it, you can’t just dabble in it. You have to be in it for three, four, five generations of dogs. And even then. I’ve been doing this a really long time, and I think, “Oh wow, this is going to be the best litter ever.” That’s not happening.

Laura Reeves [27:50] Never put on the litter theme as superheroes before they’re actually on the ground, let me tell you! 

[27:55] Sometimes you have two that get together without you knowing it, and they plan their own litter, and sometimes that can be better than the ones you planned. 

Laura Reeves [28:05] Mother Nature knows best. 

[28:06] Yeah, it’s kind of humbling in a lot of ways. 

[28:12] What I like is it’s not such a famous breed. It’s still kind of folksy. You’ve got to know people. They don’t just let you breed to their dog if they don’t know you, if they’ve never been to your house. 

[28:24] This breed can be really challenging, especially as show dogs and with a breeding program and everything. I think that’s what attracts me to it. It’s never just boring, ever. There’s always something new. But then triumph will overtake the heartache. We all just keep moving forward.

Laura Reeves [28:44] Last question, because I know this is going to be one that you guys get. The color thing. Everybody has to have a sable or everybody has to have a merle or everybody has to have a thing. How do you talk to your puppy buyers about color?

[28:55] I ask them what they want. They always say, “I don’t want a blue.” So I go, “Okay, fine. I’ve got the tri. I sometimes have the sable.” (Because I do breed—they’re not disqualifying colors, but you might get a sable/merle.) What cracks me up is when they come, they go, “Oh! I want that!” I’m like, “That’s the one color you said you didn’t want!” This has happened so many times. 

[29:23] Because a lot of times in the books—you go to Petco and you pick up a book on Shelties and you look, and you flip through it, you see a blue. They’re not attractive. 

[29:28] They’re gray. 

[29:30] They’re almost always photos from Europe. 

Laura Reeves [29:34] Dingy! 

[29:35] They’re just not attractive at all. And then they see them. Sometimes they’ll tell me, “Oh, I don’t want a blue,” and I’ll say, “Well, here’s my website address. It’s completely not up to date or whatever, but you can just see pictures and examples of whatever.” And then—same thing. They’ll be like, “Wow. That’s beautiful.” Or if they say they don’t want a blue, I say, “Have you ever seen one?” Because the pictures don’t do them justice.

Laura Reeves [29:55] In the ring, do you run into certain colors being more difficult to finish? For example, black Pugs. Terribly difficult to finish, versus the fawn. Do you guys run into that? The bi-black. Is a bi-black tougher than a sable or something like that?

[30:15] There are judges that are all-rounders that maybe can’t see black faces necessarily. But if it’s a really beautiful animal, you can take them to a specialty show where the judges actually get detail, there’s not a problem. 

[30:27] I’ve kind of run into something lately. It might just be something silly, but I have really bright colored blues, and they have white faces. Some of them have blue eyes. I’ve noticed lately that people have been saying, “Oh! I don’t like those dogs with those blues with big white faces!” And I’m kind of like, “I’ve never thought of it that way” because I like it! 

Laura Reeves [30:52] You do have a lot of variety in the breed and color. People have some options. 

[30:57] Years ago, both the public and breeders—predominantly sable. I think sables were the prettier ones. The better quality ones were sable. Any other colors kind of lagged behind. But now, I think really there’s not a lot of difference. And I think the public knows. They’ve seen these other colors, especially with Aussies coming out. They’ve become more familiar with the blue merle pattern. I don’t think there’s that much of a difference. In the show ring, for years, the quality was better in sables. I think in a lot of areas in the country, the quality is better in the tris and blues.

Laura Reeves [31:33] This is purely personal curiosity: I have seen a white-bodied, color-headed, smooth and a rough, but I’ve never seen it in a Sheltie. Is that something you guys see? Frown on? What is that? 

[31:44] A color-headed white? Yeah, we have it in the breed.

Laura Reeves [31:47] Do you? I’ve just never seen one; that’s why I’m asking the question. 

[31:50] I think people avoid breeding the white-factored ones together now more than they used to. 

[31:53] I see a million mismarks but very rarely a real color-headed.

[31:58] Well, the color-headed whites are allowed to be shown in Collies but right now we’re not allowed to show them in Shelties. Also, Shelties don’t come in smooth varieties like Collies do. Anyway, you can show a color-headed white, but even in Collies, you don’t see it that often. You’ll see it at really big specialties. They have a white class. Or you’ll see a color-headed white. 

Laura Reeves [32:15] But Shelties don’t do that.

[32:17] We get them. 

Laura Reeves [32:18] But you can’t show them. 

[32:18] If they’re more than 50% white. 

Laura Reeves [32:20] Okay, that’s what I thought. Just purely curiosity, because I don’t know enough to be dangerous, basically. It’s totally true! Well, thank you guys so much for joining me. I know you guys have a big meeting to get to, and I really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you very much. Have a great National!