Episode 57: Poodles as Hunting Dogs

In this week’s episode of the Good Dog Pod, host Laura Reeves is joined by Jaci Bowman to talk about the Poodle as a hunting dog. Jaci has been an owner, trainer, and handler of hunting Poodles for over two decades. 

How is the Poodle becoming more widely recognized as a hunting dog? The Poodle is well loved in the show ring, and in recent years, its popularity in the field has grown as well. The breed was originally bred to hunt in marshes for waterfowl, but they are new to field trials and certifications. In the 1990s many Poodle lovers pushed to get the breed involved in retriever and spaniel hunting tests, in which they now excel. The dog is very intelligent and is not hard wired to carry out any one hunting method, so they leverage their variety of skills to become master hunters. 

Can a dog excel in both the show ring and field trials? Jaci talks about having dogs go from the show ring to the field. The Poodle’s specialized haircuts make it relatively easy to have a dog compete in the field one day, and the show ring the next. Despite the notion that the Poodle’s cut is very ‘showy,’ it is actually very practical for hunting dogs to swim and retrieve waterfowl. There are many dogs that are exceptional at both tasks. 

Listen to this week’s episode to hear more about the Poodle’s history as a hunting dog, the differences between the Poodle sizes, and how the Poodle Club of America is advocating for the legacy of the breed to better reflect the latter’s origin. 

Transcript

Laura Reeves [0:40] Welcome to the Good Dog Pod! I am your host, Laura Reeves, and we have a super, super fun podcast for you today. I have with me Jaci Bowman, who is actively involved with Hunting Poodles! This is fabulous. We talk all the time about the continental trim and the reason that you see the show dogs with their particular outfit for the show ring. They are hunting dogs, and they are active hunting dogs! Jaci, welcome! Thank you for joining us.

Jaci Bowman [1:15] Hi! Thanks for asking me. 

LR [1:17] Excellent. So, give us a little bit of 411. How did you start with Poodles? How did you start hunting with Poodles?

JB [1:23] Well, I’ve had Poodles since I was a kid, back in the ’60s. I’m not going to age myself too bad. But I always had an interest in the field aspect of the breed from the history of the breed. We started actually hunting over our dogs back in the ’90s with one of my dogs that decided he was going to be a field dog. He hunts upland waterfowl and whatnot. And my young Standard puppy kept stealing the geese out of the garage when he’d bring one home. So I thought if he wants a goose that bad, maybe we’d better start playing hunting dog with him. So I started training him for grins because at that time, the Poodles weren’t available to go into the hunt test. The working certificate program through the parent club was just basically starting. The dog was actually a hunting dog that drew me into the field.

LR [2:13] I love that. Love that! So we’re in the ’90s now, and the working certificate test—tell us about that, and we’ll segue into the other events that Poodles are now eligible to compete in. But talk to us about what started the working certificate. 

JB [2:29] Sure. A lot of folks up in Canada. It was spearheaded by Jack Harbor up there and Emily Cain. They were getting Poodles interested (again, back through history) into the field. They were able to get into the Canadian program up there before AKC and the PCA got any interest in it. From that, they had a lot of PR for their hunting dogs up there. The people down here started to get good ideas that this might be a good thing to play with, too. A program was set up through the parent club (the Poodle Club of America) in the early ’90s to certify the talent in the dogs, that they still can do some of what the original foundation in the breed was. A working certificate test basically is almost an instinct test, to see if the dog’s got it or not. They have to do two simple retrieves on land and two simple retrieves in the water. Then there’s a second tier that was put in, that the dog needed to have more training for. They have to do a double, which is they watch two birds come down and first go pick one up and then go pick the other one up on land, and they have to do the same thing in the water. And then they also have to honor, which means after they’ve run their land series, they have to sit and watch another dog do the same thing they just did off-leash and be patient and watch the work of the dog, which is kind of hard once they come off the field and they want to go play again. That’s how the original certificates were set up. That program was pushed hard by a number of people, way back when, and was a lot of work from very dedicated people. The Retrievers allowed us into the Retriever Hunt Test Program, I believe in ’98 or ’99, right in through there. The dog that took me to the field—actually, he was the first titled AKC Junior Hunter of the breed. We entered into 4 hunt tests within 26 days of the start of the program, and he titled in 4, so that was fun. 

LR [4:40] I’ve run Retriever hunt tests. My family started in field trial Labs, so I know how tough that is. 

JB [4:45] Yeah, and we basically ran the fall series in this area, and the Wisconsin area is kind of tight with hunt tests. The fall series is usually the most difficult, and they would run at some of the field trial clubs, so they had a little bit more expectation over some of the breed clubs. So he ran clean 10s in 3 trials, so that was fun.

LR [5:10] That’s wow! And it sounds a little bit emotional. A heart dog for you.

JB [5:14] Just a bit. 

LR [5:16] And so then after the Retriever work—you had the working certificate test with PCA, you were allowed to come and participate in the Retriever hunt test through AKC—so when did you then add the Spaniel hunt test piece?

JB [5:29] I was kind of in disagreement with some of the people earlier on in the program because I thought we should maybe get in the Spaniel program at the same time. They flat said no, because we want to go into the field trials. We never quite made field trial level. But due to the fact that our dogs have been hunted upland the whole time we’ve ever hunted them (and they’re very, very talented upland dogs and very few Poodles I’ve seen introduced to upland have not been very talented upland dogs), I started pushing kind of hard. We actually got someplace about 4-5 years ago. We wound up developing a Spaniel upland program for PCA, and it was accepted. We started to do that and prove to the Spaniel Program that, yes, indeed, we can do upland work. This’ll be our third year at PCA. Two years ago, we had our inaugural Spaniel hunt test.

LR [6:25] This is just fabulous. Yesterday was my April Fool’s Day podcast, right? So one of the things I actually talked about was Poodles hunting and how clearly they’re a superior species because they’re able to participate in Spaniel and Retriever hunt tests, which I just think is fabulous. Do you see dogs that are competing and titling in both of those? 

JB [6:49] Oh, yes. Actually most of the ones that are titling in the Spaniel test have already been running in the Retriever test. Some of them haven’t, but for the most part. Once you get the bug/hooked that you have to go play hunt trials, you’ve got to go do it. 

LR [7:04] I love that. So the other thing that I noticed (and I just did a little bit of research) was in 2017 or 2018 (one of those years), you guys had 34 dogs entered in these events. That seems to me like a pretty good number for something that’s still pretty new.

JB [7:23] Right. I don’t have the exact number (I’d have to call AKC because last year I did our counting amount.) We’ve got well upwards of 50-60 dogs already titled in 2 years. 

LR [7:35] Nice. 

JB [7:37] From everything. From Junior, we have several Master dogs that are now titled. A lot of them are titled not so much just in the field, they’re also bench champions, and they’re also agility and obedience and rally dogs.

LR [7:50] I just think everybody says, “Standard Poodles are the smartest dogs,” and I truly believe it! They really are amazing. 

JB [7:58] They’re quite bright, but sometimes their intelligence is a pain, too. They kind of keep outthinking the trainers. So it makes for a more interesting training session—shall we put it this way? They’re not hard-wired to do any one thing. Period. I mean, most of your Labs and most of your Retrievers (I also have Chesapeakes) are hard-wired to retrieve. They do it because they have to retrieve. The Poodles, for the most part, do it for the bird. If they can come out a different way to find it and get it, they’re much happier than if they have to just go blasting through any heavy cover. 

LR [8:36] Running straight lines is definitely not the Poodle thing. Is this what you’re telling me?

JB [8:40] Pretty much. You also have to remember: they have a very strong Spaniel base. Their heritage was quite Water Spaniel. They worked with hunters, not for hunters. Therein lies the difference. They basically were supposed to (way back when; we’re talking 1500s) flush waterfowl out of marshes. They were not deep water dogs. They were marsh dogs. They also were used to hunt pre-firearms. So they had to hunt with somebody that’s got a bow and arrow. They were expected to retrieve the arrow if they missed. They were working on their own, for the most part. To put them right and expect them to behave like a dog that’s been developed to strictly do non-slip Retriever work—it don’t happen that way. They add their crooked lines to their straight lines real quick. 

LR [9:34] I love that. Talk a little bit more about the show champion dogs who were also hunting, because anybody that’s ever heard my podcast—this is a huge thing for me. I think it’s so important because these standards were written so that the dog could do its job well. The show dog should be able to do the job well. Talk to us about how much you’re seeing of people coming from the show ring to the field.

JB [10:03] Basically that’s where it’s come from. This is not a slip breed because it’s just been newly reintroduced to the field. Most of the heritage (very close-up heritage) that was in that last generation, two generations, were show dogs that people had either had and wanted to try field work with or they’ve gotten from other people. (Where are you going to get them? Backyard breeder or whatever or a show breeder.) Basically, these dogs—there’s no difference. Sometimes the extreme show dogs that have extreme conformation—just built for the hair—there are some; they have more issues with it. But the desire is still there. They may not be as physically talented at doing it, but like I said, for the most part, it’s still in the dog. You just have to bring it out. 

LR [10:56] I love this. My next question: Standards, obviously, Minis (because I have Wirehaired Pointer friends that hunt with Minis)—do you see as many Minis as Standards? 

JB [11:08] You’re seeing more and more because people are realizing how tenacious the little buggers are. They really are strong little dogs. Like I said, they’re very tenacious. Actually, the Standards have been more selected to have a mellowed out type of personality, simply because they’re big dogs. Big dog/little dog syndrome. People think it’s cute when a little dog comes up and stomps its feet and goes, “Hey! I’m bigger than you!” But if a 50-60 pound dog does that, they kind of frown upon that. The little dogs haven’t lost any of that tenacity. For the most part, they’re much better swimming animals, probably because of the fact that they’re short. This is my theory. Because every time they get more than 2 or 3 strides into the water, they have to swim.

LR [11:52] Right! There’s no wading for a Miniature. 

JB [11:55] No, not easily. Whereas the Standards, if they can bottom-walk, yeah, they’re going to try it. 

LR [11:59] Absolutely. 

JB [12:01] And they’re very good at it. 

LR [12:02] I assume—but I shouldn’t—Toys? Does that variety participate at all?

JB [12:07] Not really. To me, I think it’s a dangerous situation, simply because they are so small. Even an upland bird—unless you’re going to be working maybe a quail… Even a really tough Toy is going to have a problem with a rooster pheasant. Period. 

LR [12:23] That was kind of what I thought, because they’re sort of the size of the birds. 

JB [12:28] Right, and part of the other thing, too, is they came from a different… This is all one breed with three varieties. But they’ve all been interbred down the road, and the Toys were basically used as pets. They were also used as circus performers. They were also used, with the Miniatures, as truffle dogs. They’re very good at scenting. They had a lot of jobs, too. It’s just that they were different jobs.

LR [12:54] I love that! So PCA is coming up. And you’re going to have all of these events. You’re also going to have an opportunity for people to test out their, if you will, floofy show dog. Is that something that people can decide to do the day of? Or do they have to pre-enter that?

JB [13:13] It probably would be a good thing to get on the PCA website. There’s a little sign-up sheet on there that you can get a hold of and email somebody. I don’t know exactly where that needs to go. But it’s just an instinct, to see if the dog has any field aptitude. I believe that’s usually run on Sunday, but I’m not 100% sure on that. It’s either Saturday or Sunday, but I’m pretty sure it’s Sunday. The upland events are being held on Thursday. It’ll be the Spaniel test. Friday will be the certificate testing for the upland. Saturday will be the Retriever hunt test. And Sunday will be the working certificate Retriever test. That’s four days. And then we start the rest of the show! 

LR [13:56] Exactly! Wirehaired Pointers have a field trial and dog shows, so our National (if we do both) is 10 days. That’s just your life! 

JB [14:03] That’s what this is, too. It starts on a Thursday and finishes on the following Friday. It’s kind of crazy.

LR [14:11] Final question: You’re a groomer by profession. How much of a challenge is it to take those dogs that were out mucking about in the marsh and get them ready for PCA with all the glamor? 

JB [14:21] No, it’s not too bad! Most of them aren’t in full coat. There’ll be a few that are. Last year, I took mine and went from all 4 field events. Then we did agility. Then we did rally and beginner novice. And then we showed him in the hunting dog class and stud dog class. So we were there the full length of time. He’s in the shorter trim, the modified continental, which has been getting a lot more popular right now. It wasn’t really a big issue because this is a trim that was developed. It’s the extra hair. More is better. So we grow and spray up, but the working continental trim (which is basically the modified trim) can go from the water to the show ring and back again without any problems. So that’s kind of fun. 

LR [15:11] I love that! Listeners, we will have information, links, and (if I’m very, very lucky) Jaci will send me a picture of this dog in its working continental trim that went from the field to the show ring last year. 

JB [15:25] I can do that. We have a couple. 

LR [15:28] Yes! Well, Jaci, thank you so much. You told me you have 9 dogs to trim. Get to it! I really, really appreciate your time today.