Episode 20: Breed Showcase: The Elegant & Complex Briard with Terry Miller of Deja Vu Briards

About Terry Miller: Terry is a renowned breeder of Briards, under the name Deja Vu Briards. She has owned and produced more than 275 Deja Vu Briards champions since 1982!

The Briard is a complex working dog that is known for its coat and deep history in herding. Terry gives a rundown of the history of the breed and how the breed standard was developed from its original purpose as a herding dog.

Laura and Terry then discuss where the breed is now, and what it represents as the national dog of France. The Briard has transitioned away from being primarily a herding dog - Terry discusses the implications of that when thinking of the Briard as a family dog, and how to set yourself up for success if you’re thinking about getting a Briard.

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Transcription:

Laura Reeves [0:52] Welcome to the Good Dog Pod! I am your host, Laura Reeves, and we’re very excited today to announce a new feature on the Good Dog Pod! We are going to have Breed Showcases. To kick off this really, really fun opportunity, we are being joined today by Terry Miller, who is quite, quite, quite famous for her Deja Vu Briards. And we are going to talk about Briards. I am so excited! So, welcome, Terry!

Terry Miller [1:25] Thank you! It’s so exciting for me. 

Laura Miller [1:27] Briards are, in my view, one of the most elegant-looking breeds, you know? They’ve got the hair and the flow. I showed one once. My client wanted arm candy, and I’m thinking I’m not sure the mindset is right for arm candy. So talk to us about these really, really beautiful dogs who have a good bit to them.

Terry Miller [1:50] They are a very complex breed on many levels. Just from the standpoint of first glance, they’re cute and shaggy and (a good one) elegant. They have a beautiful carriage, that style. The standard is so specific about “head carried proudly alert.” That just says it all in a lot of ways. But, underneath all that hair, percolates a very complex working dog that thinks a lot, thinks that maybe it should think for himself a lot, has strong opinions, and requires a fair amount of good management to have a good one that is biddable and fits in the world today. So they’re very high maintenance. 

Laura Reeves [2:43] Yes! Yes, they are. 

Terry Miller [2:46] And not just the hair. 

Laura Reeves [2:47] I say I showed one. That was enough!

Terry Miller [2:50] High maintenance: at first glance, of course, when you talk about maintenance, you think about hair. And, yes, the hair can be high maintenance but the true high maintenance of the breed is their social sensibility—who they are and what they were bred to do. 

Laura Reeves [3:06] Yes. So that is the perfect segue. We love to hear the history of the breeds on these showcases, so let’s talk about the Briard historically. It’s an old breed, yes?

Terry Miller [3:16] It’s a very old breed. Although, really, when you think about their development, as with many of the Central European working herding breeds, they probably weren’t breeds. They were regionally, and there was all kinds of contributions from different animals, bringing in their different traits. They didn’t really become a breed until probably the late 1800s, being a segregated breed. But historically, they’re fascinating, as is true of many of the old herding and working breeds. They probably are closely related to the Beauceron and the Picard. Some people believe that those were the three coats that were found in one litter. We don’t know that for sure, but we do believe that for sure the Beauceron and the Briard are very, very closely related. Up until recently, believe it or not, the language in the Beauceron standard and the language in the Briard standard were identical in every single way. It wasn’t until Beauceron came into the AKC, and they reformatted and changed some of the language. But if you read the standard from really not that long ago, word for word, the breed sounds exactly the same except color and coat. 

Laura Reeves [4:37] Interesting. 

Terry Miller [4:38] The breed was a shaggy, all-purpose farm dog, so it served a shepherd. It had a lot of purposes. It served a shepherd, a farmer. It moved stock, so it’s very high prey drive by nature, but they also guarded the farm. They probably were companions to the family. Because of their strong guarding sensibilities, they are very, very devoted to their people, so that’s part of their history, too. Primarily, they started out being a working dog. With the advent of farming, they were shepherd dogs. 

Laura Reeves [5:19] One of the things that I love about the breed—talk about the tail. Because it’s very specific, and it ties into its heritage. So just mention that, because I think that’s really fascinating. 

Terry Miller [5:31] So the tail should be the shape of the letter J, and it should be carried low. In the breed, the language we use is calling it a crochet. It’s called a crochet because it sort of should be the shape of a crochet hook, but it probably was sort of mimicking the shepherd staff. And the tail is one of the hallmarks of the breed and really important to the outline of the breed and what they are. 

Laura Reeves [6:04] Right, that’s why I thought it’s a very fascinating piece, to me. So, historically, they were shepherd dogs, they were guarding dogs—how have they moved forward into the 20th and even the 21st century? Are they still being worked on stock? Are they serving any military purpose? Like a lot of the herding dogs went to military. Talk to us about that, this transition of the last 150 years. 

Terry Miller [6:31] For sure, they were used in the military. They were one of the breeds, just like many of the other working breeds, that came close to extinction because of so many of them being killed and breeders not being able to breed them during World War I. 

Laura Reeves [6:46] And they are French, we should mention, I think. 

Terry Miller [6:48] They are French. They are the national dog of France, and the French are very, very loyal to their Briards. So, for the most part, they’re not really used much in the world as a shepherd dog. There are, I believe, some remnants of people that use them on stock. Now, it’s more recreational than it is anything else. There are lots of people that take herding lessons, compete in herding trials—at least in this country, somewhat in Europe. But in Europe, there’s not very many of them any longer. I recently read a letter from a French dog expert who I believe is a shepherd. He wrote the letter about ten years ago, and he said: “What a shame with the Briard. They’ve been bred more for their coat and their color than for their sensibility and the work that they were originally designed to do.” You still are left with all of those instincts. Again, many of us herd with them, but they’re not really used that much.

Laura Reeves [7:51] Again, you are just nailing all your spots here. That is a perfect segue into living with them, because those instincts that have been part of who this breed is for hundreds of years are still there today and have an impact on how this dog is to live with as a companion. 

Terry Miller [8:14] Right. So they are extraordinary family pets when they have a good temperament. I consider temperament to be one of our health problems in the breed. So they are an extraordinary pet when they have a good temperament, because they’re very, very devoted to the family. They love their children. They would rather lay at your feet in a heap than anything else. They adapt themselves to anything. So if you are somebody that likes to run marathons, they want to run a marathon. If you’re somebody that wants to binge Netflix every weekend, they will binge Netflix every weekend. They’re so focused on their circle of family that they adapt just to be with you and be part of it. But, as with all traits, there’s a dark side. The dark side in the breed is that this is a breed that wants to be exclusive to what is familiar to them. What I like to say to people is this is a breed that doesn’t want to let anybody in the house or let anybody out of the house. 

Laura Reeves [9:22] That’s actually a really beautiful way to describe them. 

Terry Miller [9:25] Their socialization requirements are enormous. There are lots of breeds that need a lot of socialization. This is a big, strong breed that’s more than happy to use its teeth and be bossy. So without the socialization, they can be aggressive if they didn’t start with a good temperament. A good solid temperament, with proper socialization—they are phenomenal. They’ll welcome anybody coming into the home. However, that person coming into the home—with many Briards—just becomes like a piece of furniture to them. They have no meaning. They’ll greet them. They’ll be stable without them. They won’t bite them. They’ll be just fine. But, you’re nobody to me! 

Laura Reeves [10:08] Right. You’re not my mom! 

Terry Miller [10:09] Exactly, or my family. I had a bitch once—her name was Clover. She was one of my closest dogs, in all my dogs. When she got older, when people came to visit, she was absolutely lovely. But after they were there a while, she would get up, walk to the door, turn around, and look at us, and make a big sigh. Like: when are they out of here? And it was deliberate. It happened every time there were people visiting. She didn’t care about them, but she was ready for them to be out of her life. 

Laura Reeves [10:45] Where I would like to go with this a little bit more: talking to the average owner who wants to purchase and own a Briard, when you talk about socialization and what that involves and why it’s important—give us some specifics. Name three things you absolutely have to do with your Briard puppy in order to have a good citizen in your life.

Terry Miller [11:06] First, what I like to do for people is I like to define socialization. Because there’s a lot of misunderstanding about socialization. Let’s clarify the socialization I’m speaking about. This is not about taking your Briard to a dog park and letting it run around and play with other dogs. Because, besides the fact that they’re not good at dog parks at all (because of their high prey drive)—I mean, some of them can be, but we avoid dog parks mostly because we call dog parks “producing bad Briard behavior.” The socialization I’m speaking about—and this is what I say to all of our puppy people to start, before they ever get a dog (this is when I’m deciding whether they can handle this breed), is: First and foremost, in the first year of their life, they need to go and meet and greet minimally 50 strangers a month in 50 unique and novel situations. That means you schlep them into Home Depot, into the L.L. Bean Store, into Nordstrom, into the farmers market, outside Costco on Saturday mornings, to dog stores, to dog classes, and you have to be creative. Now during Covid, even more creative than normal. Because the socialization takes a new form. When we socialize, it’s not just about walking around Home Depot, let’s just say. It’s about walking around Home Depot with a pocketful of treats and having your dog go up into the personal space of a stranger. And the personal space is the key. Because most Briards, when they’re learning to be socialized, are happy to stretch forward, take a piece of treat, and then go stand back by their owner, which is what’s familiar to them. So I teach people to take their dog on the leash, walk the dog up within the personal space of the person, and the ticket to getting the treat is that it has to be eaten within the personal space of that person and that person has to pet the dog until the dog is somewhat relaxed. It might be two minutes, it might be two seconds—depends on the dog and the situation. But it’s a must. So we get very specific in teaching people about socialization, but the specific socialization I’m talking about does not work with wearing masks and physical distancing. So we’ve had to try to work on figuring out creative other ways to do that. That’s sort of the parameters of socialization. You have to be creative, you have to be unique. The dog needs constantly changing, so we’re looking for novel. 

Laura Reeves [14:03] And consistent. 

Terry Miller [14:05] Exactly. 

Laura Reeves [14:07] And it’s a commitment of time, just as much as brushing the dog and feeding the dog, is socializing the dog. 

Terry Miller [14:14] That’s right. And, in my view (but I’m a dog behaviorist) it’s much more critical to, let’s say, brushing. Brushing’s important! But the socialization is most important, because, first of all, it’s time sensitive. It’s important that it be accomplished in that first year, even though intermittently, you might do it throughout the dog’s life. But it’s critical in that early part of their life. You can’t scrimp on it. You may pay the price. Some Briards are naturally more gregarious. I’ve had some where, if I have not socialized them, they would still be the same confident, social dog that they are. But I would say more than 50% of them would not be, so you have to do the work. 

Laura Reeves [15:00] Yes. I say I showed one. I went to one Briard National, and I hesitate to say this out loud, but honestly: It was one of the more nerve-wracking experiences of my 40 years in dogs, to walk through that grooming area. Like, there was dogs coming off the tables at me like alligators. When we say, people, that this dog must have this work put into it and getting to know your breeder and your breeder’s dogs is imperative, we’re not kidding! 

Terry Miller [15:33] Really not. I’m so glad you brought that up, because I would’ve talked about that briefly, and I wasn’t sure whether it’s right to do, but when we go to Nationals, we joke (but it’s not funny) we check who’s in the elevator before we get into it. It’s not just about the socialization at that point. That’s about the management of the owner. So if you have a weak owner that’s not good at keeping boundaries and having control, that’s where you get dogs jumping off the tables and the owner saying, “Oh, no, no. Come back.” Whatever. Anyway, along with the socialization work and the high maintenance, comes an owner with a good hand, good boundaries, and as opinionated as their dog might be. 

Laura Reeves [16:21] Yes. So this is, again, you’ve nailed your transitions. Who makes a good owner? Who makes an owner that you would encourage to find a different breed?

Terry Miller [16:32] I just did that with somebody this week who called, and they really, really, really wanted a Briard. Really talking about them with them thoroughly—it was like: This is not going to be the breed for you. You, first of all, don’t have the time to put in. You don’t have to quit your day job to socialize a Briard. I mean, you can go to soccer games and other things you might be doing. Incorporate it! But this person didn’t have the strength of their own convictions, and you have to be comfortable with setting limits, setting boundaries, backing that up. This is a breed that absolutely does not do well with pure positive reinforcement. That can make a dangerous dog. I am such a control freak about that that when new people contact us to get a puppy, the first thing I do is I say, “Call your local area. Search for trainers. Get me a list of five websites and trainers, and I am going to call them all and tell you which you can go to.” Because, otherwise, it can be a disaster! A dog who is a perfectly average Briard can be made into a monster with no consequences. It has to be an owner that’s comfortable with that.

Laura Reeves [17:57] I think that that is absolutely true and so important when you are considering a Briard and talking to your breeder about Briards. You mentioned earlier that temperament is something you consider a health problem in your breed. If your breeder is not talking about this, perhaps you need to visit another breeder.

Terry Miller [18:19] I think that most of our breeders are pretty good about that, doing their due diligence with educating people and being very vocal about it. Because, obviously, as breeders we know it’s in the dog’s best interest, our best interest, and the person’s best interest. The last thing we want is getting back a 20-month male that has been mishandled, and he’s a monster. And that’s not just a male. I mean, it could happen with a bitch, too. 

Laura Reeves [18:51] But I’m saying when you look at breeds in this sort of group, in this category, in this type of mind—that’s a very real thing. I think all of us who have dealt with strong-minded dogs have experienced that sort of situation.

Terry Miller [19:08] No question about it. It’s always a combination between nature and nurture, of course. But somebody that is a good candidate for a Briard has got to be up to the task. In my case (and I think most of the other breeders do this, too), I speak to both husband and wife. I’ve had that experience with a man in Los Angeles who called up, got a puppy, he sounded great. He was a perfect candidate. I shipped him the puppy a couple of months later, and he called me up at 4:30 in the morning because his wife who had had a baby 6 weeks before (and I hadn’t spoken to her; I had done all my speaking with him) kicked him out of the house and said, “You brought the puppy home from Los Angeles Airport and put the puppy in the kitchen and went to bed.” She heard screaming downstairs and she woke up when she was up feeding the baby. It was like what is that?! 

Laura Reeves [20:08] Oh my god. 

Terry Miller [20:10] Kicked him out of the house with the dog and said, “Don’t come back.” And he’s calling me crying and not knowing what to do. 

Laura Reeves [20:17] Okay, we’re both laughing here. Oh my goodness. Okay! So, there you go. That’s not the way for anyone to bring any dog home to any situation! That checked all the boxes of no-nos. Oh my goodness. With temperament in mind, talk to us about any other health and longevity issues with the Briard. 

Terry Miller [20:40] Briards are really quite a healthy breed. They’re fairly long-lived for a big breed. I say the average in the breed is 11-12. It’s not unusual to have them live till 13-14. We lost a bitch last year. She was 15 and a half. Now that’s unique. We lost our old girl about 8 weeks ago, and she was 14 and a half. Again, there’s plenty of them that live to that. Our health problems: We don’t have really breed-specific health problems. We have gastric torsion in the breed that mostly sits more in some families than others, as with every health thing. Cancer is the primary killer of the breed, even with old dogs. We mostly have lymphoma, hemangiosarcoma, if the Briard’s going to have cancer. Most of us check hips, check basic eyes. We don’t have, like, PRA much in the way of cataracts. We don’t have seizures and things like that, that some breeds have. 

Laura Reeves [21:44] A lot of herding breeds do have, so that’s interesting. 

Terry Miller [21:49] Yup! We check hearts. I know others check hearts. We have no heart problems. We do it to know that we keep the no heart problems. We have something that’s called congenital stationary night blindness, which is a genetic problem that has a DNA test, that was found in the breed quite a while ago. Dr. Gustavo Aguirre developed a DNA test. That was in a very small population of the breed. Because of the DNA test, it’s allowed those people that had it in their family of dogs to be able to test for it and still utilize those dogs. 

Laura Reeves [22:30] Right, absolutely. 

Terry Miller [22:33] Basically, pretty health dog. They stay pretty healthy for a long time. I mean, they could be 11 or 12 and still running around and doing stairs and jumping in the car and jumping on the bed. They are pretty vital for a long time.

Laura Reeves [22:47] Another good segue there! Exercise requirements—you said they’re adaptable. But we assume they need to do more than walk down to the corner and back each day. 

Terry Miller [22:57] Absolutely. Yes. So they are not naturally a super active dog. Their adaptability is the big key there. But they are a dog that, even with puppies, you could have several puppies in the room, and they’ll come in and run around and play with a toy for a couple of minutes and then they collapse and fall asleep. They’re not super destructive as a breed, for the most part. But they do need exercise—no question. We tell them they need to get out and do some double-suspension galloping for their own health and their own good—better than just walking. I don’t feel that’s enough for any dog. But a tired puppy is a good puppy. They love to run. They love to run with a bike. Many of them would love to catch a frisbee or chase a stick. But then they’re out for the count. They are not looking for more, for the most part. Very adaptable. If you see videos and photographs of them with shepherds, they were a dog that had to really rate themselves. There could be 400 head of sheep and as long as those sheep are active, the dog is active and ever-watchful. But if those sheep are grazing very peacefully and very calmly, the dog goes and lays down under a tree and doesn’t have work to do. It is a breed that you would never leave with a herd of sheep. They are not a flock guardian. Because then they become a flock predator. 

Laura Reeves [24:31] So, final question then: grooming. Time commitment to grooming? I mean, all that coat is beautiful, but it shocked me when I was showing them. You get through a lot easier than you think you will, but it still requires work. So think about how much a week are you spending brushing the dog?

Terry Miller [24:51] It depends on the kind of coat. We have huge variation of coat in the breed. So dogs that carry a lot of bushy undercoat, longer undercoat, take longer a lot more work to take care of. That coat also depends on the age of the dog. So they start changing coat from a puppy coat (there’s very little maintenance in puppy coat). They start changing coat around 6-8 months old, and that can be almost a solid year of a nightmare of lots and lots and lots and lots of mattes. Basically, it’s brushing, bathing, blowing dry (but mostly brushing). A good coat in adulthood would be 3 hours a week—brushing, bathing, blowing dry. You get through the coat very easily, maybe 2 hours a week if it’s a good coat. But if it’s not a good coat, it could be 10 hours a week. Some people shave them because they can’t keep up with it. But if you keep up with it, it can be an everyday deal of brushing in the areas where there’s the most friction. 

Laura Reeves [25:57] Armpits and groin, typically. 

Terry Miller [26:00] Groin and legs. In between the rear legs. It’s a lot. 

Laura Reeves [26:05] It is. And, again, coat, texture, and quantity is a genetic thing, so you can talk to your breeder when you’re talking to them about the puppies and ask. See the dogs in the family and find out: Are you liable to be getting a bush monster or something with a more textured coat that’s going to be easier to maintain?

Terry Miller [26:25] That oftentimes will take a couple of years to get to, till the coat is changed. It depends, again. 

Laura Reeves [26:32] Alright. Final comment: Three words that, to you, define the Briard. 

Terry Miller [26:38] Athletic, devoted, and strong-opinioned. 

Laura Reeves [26:49] I’d agree with that one. Alright, well, Terry, thank you so very much for sharing about your absolutely beloved breed, and we will talk to you more.

Terry Miller [26:58] It was great to talk to you.