Episode 55: Clumber Spaniel Roundtable

This week, Good Dog Pod’s host Laura Reeves is joined by three guests to discuss the extraordinary Clumber Spaniel. The guests have decades of Clumber experience between them in breeding, veterinary practice, and judging. 

What is it like to live with a Clumber Spaniel? The Clumber is a very affectionate, humorous, and loving family dog. They get along with children and other dogs, as well as cats if introduced early. However, any prospective owner should also be comfortable with a lot of shedding, slobbering, and snoring. 

How is the Clumber Spaniel as a hunting dog? While the Clumber is often misperceived as slow because of its stocky build, this is actually not true. When necessary, the Clumber can be surprisingly fast on the field. They are part of the flushing Spaniels group and are methodical and insistent, making them exceptional bird hunters.

What are some health issues every Clumber Spaniel owner should be aware of? Neck and back problems are the most prominent health issues, and there are other common concerns such as hip dysplasia, spleen tumors, entropion, and PDP1. The Clumber can be naughty and rambunctious, so the most common reason that this breed needs veterinary attention is if the dog accidentally ingests something inedible. Clumbers need to be supervised until they can be completely trusted. Pet insurance is highly recommended for this breed. 

What are some misconceptions about the Clumber Spaniel in the show ring? The Clumber Spaniel is long, low, and substantial. Because there are only 3000 Clumbers in the USA, there are misconceptions among judges around the eye shape, tail, and trot speed. Our guests are advocating for more public knowledge around this wonderful breed!

Transcript

Laura Reeves [0:40] We are here at the Clumber Spaniel Club of America National Specialty in Portland, Oregon, and I am joined by three long-time Clumber Spaniel owners, breeders, exhibitors, a couple of judges, a veterinarian. We are going to talk about Clumber Spaniels: the good, the bad, and the ugly, as they say. So I have Jan Sutherland, I have Roe Froman, and we have Jim Fankhauser. I’m going to give everybody an opportunity to introduce themselves (a little bit about your time in the breed), and we’ll go from there. So, Jan, let’s start with you.

Jan Sutherland [1:13] Okay, Jan Sutherland. I’ve been in the breed for about 25 years now. I am the President of the Clumber Spaniel Club of America. Got into the breed because my husband found this breed. After having Goldens, he found the Clumber and fell in love. When he got my Clumber, I just had to have one for myself. I started going to the Nationals. There were a lot of Clumbers there, a lot of breeders. Talking to the breeders, I saw something in one of the Clumbers—that was the Clumber I wanted. I talked to the breeder, and from there on, I’ve been breeding Clumbers for 25 years. And I’m a judge now. 

LR [1:52] Excellent. Roe? 

Roe Froman [1:54] Hi, I’m Roe Froman. I am a veterinarian since 1990 and have had Clumber Spaniels since ’94. For 20 years before that, we had Chow Chows. We did a 180. I know that’s a real radical—

LR [2:05] I actually didn’t even know that!

RF [2:08] Yeah, we did. Finally, we were on our last Chow, and I said to my husband, “You know, honey, I want a dog I don’t have to put in the bedroom when the pizza guy comes anymore.” I’ve always liked those Clumbers. We talked to a couple of breeders and were fortunate to meet Jan Friis, who started us with our first two dogs, and we haven’t looked back. They are the one true breed for us, and I don’t think we’ll have anything else. 

LR [2:28] Excellent. And Mr. Fankhauser?

Jim Fankhauser [2:30] I’m Jim Fankhauser. I’ve been in Clumber Spaniels now for about 24 years. I judge working and sporting groups. Working on the herding group right now. I’ve been breeding them now since 1997, so about 20 years. I’ve had the good fortune to have judged the National Specialty twice. I’ve also had a couple of dogs that won the National Specialty that I bred. It’s been a wonderful breed. I enjoy it tremendously. I have no interest in any other breed at this point in time. 

LR [3:00] And you started in Saint Bernards, correct?

JF [3:03] I started as a 20-year-old kid in Saint Bernards, showed and exhibited those and did a little bit of breeding for probably about 8 years. And then when my wife and I met, we thought that there were better places for our time, our money, and our efforts than dog shows. We took about a 13-year hiatus. 

LR [3:20] Oh, wow. Okay. 

JF [3:20] And then came back in. I’m also considered a breeder judge for Saint Bernards, so I get the opportunity to judge about one Specialty a year for that breed.

LR [3:30] Excellent. My family got our first Clumber Spaniel in 1980, I think, ’81 maybe. So this has been my National for longer than anything else. I am very excited about this opportunity to talk about a breed that has been an enormous part of my life. 

JS [3:53] A relative! Part of the family. 

LR [3:53[ This is my family, right here. I think that’s one of the things we can talk a little bit about. Jan touched on it. National Specialties are a family reunion. They are an opportunity to see your people and, just like any family reunion, there’s always that one cousin Jimmy that you can just avoid. There’s always your one favorite uncle that you have to go and give a great big hug and a kiss to, and there’s always your besties and your sister/brother people. That is what National Specialties are, and they are the same in every breed. As a handler, I’ve been to a lot of Nationals in my own breed, Wirehaired Pointers and Clumbers—all of this, it’s always the same. It’s so important for anyone who has just started in a breed to go to National Specialties. 

JS [4:42] I agree. 

JF [4:45] Attend a National Specialty before you even make the plunge. Look at the extent of what’s out there before you jump in and make a commitment. 

LR [4:53] We’re going to talk about this. Climbers are not the breed for everyone. 

JS [4:56] That is true. 

LR [4:58] Let’s start with living with Clumbers. 

JS [5:00] Living with Clumbers. Well, you have to be able to deal with lots of hair. My husband says, “Thirteen months out of the year, they shed.” So, you have to be able to deal with that. And you have to be able to deal with slime slobber. Drinking water and spreading it throughout the house. But, on the upside of that, as many people have talked to me about: They are so funny. They do so many hilarious things that keep you smiling. You can come home from work after having a bad, bad day, and you open up the door, and here’s this ball of fuzz with a toy in their mouth and their butt’s going everywhere. Not to give you the toy, just to show you the toy. It just brings a smile to your face. They do so many fun things that other dogs—I’ve had Goldens—have never brought to our life. You have to live with the slime, slobber, mud sometimes (depending on where you live), but with all that, it’s so worthwhile. 

LR [6:07] Roe?

RF [6:08] The same thing. Shedding, slobber, snoring is a big one. I know a dog that the owners adored her, but she slept in the garage because they didn’t like that she snored. They’re not garage dogs. They’re not kennel dogs. They’re house pets. They need to be part of your family. It’s important to know the downside of the breed when you’re considering adding a family member because it helps you to know what health issues you’re going to be facing. Maybe you can deal with an idea of some disease, but if a back would be too much for some people, don’t get a Dachshund and probably don’t get a Clumber. They’ve gotten a lot better, but that’s a known health issue.

LR [6:44] We’re going to definitely go into that more, for sure.

RF [6:47] But they are the most loving, funny, humorous characters of dogs that I have ever known. They’re all individuals. My 10-month-old puppy can drive me crazy, but I wouldn’t trade her for a million dollars. They are just the best dog you will ever have, if you are a Clumber person. You need to identify what that is. 

LR [7:07] So, Jim, talk to us about a Clumber person. Who is a Clumber person? What is a great Clumber owner?

JF [7:11] Somebody that’s tolerant of hair, slobber. I have a pair of navy sweatpants on today, but black is a non-existent color in my wardrobe. It just doesn’t work for me. A Clumber person is somebody that’s got to have that attitude that you can come home every day, the good, the bad, and deal with it. They are naughty at times. They can be over rambunctious. They can get into things. I remember Ricky Blackman telling me, “A Clumber Spaniel can walk by something for 6 months and ignore it, and then one day walk by it, and go, ‘I’ve got to destroy that.’” 

RF [7:53] Chewing is a huge thing for owners to be aware of. 

JS [7:58] Eating things! That is the biggest thing. 

JF [7:58] How many stomach surgeries have you had?

RF [8:00] We’ve had one. 

JS [8:00] At least six. 

JF [8:02] You’ve had six? You’re the winner. 

RF [8:03] I’m the vet, and we’ve had one. 

JF [8:05] We’ve had three. 

JS [8:06] I had one where we just hydrated him to the point that it pushed it out, but then he ate something again, and he still had to have the surgery! 

RF [8:17] The way I explain it to people that are new Clumber owners: when you go to your veterinarian, tell your vet they are worse than Labradors about eating things, and your vet will understand. Because Labs are supposed to be the worst. 

JF [8:29] I still send out your vet letter with every dog. 

RF [8:33] I don’t know that we have that in the vet letter. I just revised that. I may have put it in there. It’s one of the biggest health issues, really, eating things they shouldn’t. 

LR [8:41] Absolutely. Look at the Frasiers. Their vet said they were going to put a zipper because he had seven surgeries alone—that one dog.

JF [8:49] The winner. 

RF [8:52] It comes to the point where more surgeries can’t be done sometimes. 

JF [9:00] I always tell people, “Give them whatever you’re going to give them, but until you trust them (and it may take a year before you trust them) supervise. Supervise, supervise, supervise.” Until they’re completely believable. 

JS [9:14] They can go out in the yard. A glove. And I’m like, “We don’t have one of those. I’ve never!” 

RF [9:21] Found a hat at the hotel on the way out to Nationals! I’m like, “What have you got?!” 

JS [9:28] So you can supervise them, and that’s what you try to do, but some of them—they’re sneaky. 

RF [9:34] And they’re persistent. They are some of the most persistent dogs I have ever known. They don’t ever forget. Good, bad, or otherwise, if something happens, they will remember for the rest of their lives. One of my favorite stories—and I don’t know who it was, but it’s a true story—somebody was driving somewhere, and they came to a rest area, and they realized they had hit a pheasant on the road. The Clumber ran to the front bumper and found the pheasant in the grill. The rest of his life, every time he got out of the car, he ran to the front bumper—

LR [10:03] Looking for a pheasant! This is a great segue. Clumber Spaniels are hunting dogs. They are excellent hunting dogs. They are, as my father, who was one of these, would describe them “They are the fat old man’s hunting dog.” That was how my father who was, at that time, a fat old man and said so himself—

JS [10:22] You go out in the field, and you see a lot of them. 

RF [10:25] What they taught us in vet school (which was before I had a Clumber, and I hadn’t really known about them) was that they're cardiac patients. 

LR [10:32] I will respectfully disagree with that, as a field person, but they are a breed that is slow. They are thorough. They will find birds that other dogs missed. 

RF [10:40] Very methodical. 

LR [10:42] It’s not that they don’t run. It’s that they are so insistent. Speak to Clumber Spaniels and hunting with Clumber Spaniels.

RF [10:53] Love hunting with Clumber Spaniels. I don’t know how many hunt tests we’ve put on our dogs. Many, many, many. For 20 years we’ve been doing this. It’s the most fun I think we can have with our dogs anyway. We love it. They love it. I love it the first few times we go out with new groups of guys to train. Years ago, we were training a dog who was a really good hunting dog (Tillie). We’d train. It was a lot of meat guys. You know, they wanted their backyard dog to go out and hunt and have fun with them. Tillie was a typical Clumber. Took her time. Hunt, hunt, hunt. Find the bird, put it up, great. We’re done. Bring it in. Okay. But hit a cripple over her, and that dog changed gears. Every time it happened, I loved it because their jaws would drop and they always said the same thing. “Damn, I didn’t know that dog could move that fast!” They do exactly what they need to do to get the job done. If they don’t think it’s done and you do, tough noogies. They’re still hunting. 

LR [11:47] Clumber Spaniels are a Flushing Spaniel, for people who don’t know the distinction. They flush. They swim. One of the things that was my job as a child was to teach them how to swim. Because the very first Clumber we ever had, the first time he went in the water, he went to the bottom. Straight down. He was under water, and we’re standing there like, “What’re you doing?!” We had to go get him! As a child, I was paid minimum wage to go into the scummy cow pond with the Clumbers, hold their bottoms up, and teach their little back legs how to work. 

JS [12:24] There’s an easier way. You can just use bumpers  until they get it into their mouth, and then they level up. 

LR [12:28] These were not geniuses. 

JS [12:29] This is from a person who doesn’t have a kid! 

LR [12:32] Exactly. So it is something to know about Clumbers. Jim, your experience also?

JF [12:35] I don’t personally hunt but I have had the good fortune of putting a number of dogs in the homes of guys that actually hunt. They’ve never been to a hunt test, but they take them out and they actually hunt them. Mark Shayfus has been great in that respect. Mark has done like five dogs for me, and every one of them hunts. He had one that was his duck retrieving dog. It would amaze the guys at the hunt club because Avalanche could go out and get a duck and bring it in.

LR [13:03] The one that I always remember—and I think it is consistent (you guys can tell me) across the breed—do you remember the shark? My father had a Clumber Spaniel, one of our very first Clumbers, and he said she swam like a Great White Shark, silent but deadly. And she would bring in a bird that had flush and was alive when she went to get it but was miraculously dead when it arrived back. He used to say that she smothered them with a velvet pillow. Clumbers have really strong jaws. And they apply very even pressure. They don’t break the skin. There’s no guts. But they’re not breathing! 

JS [13:38] My husband and I have just recently gotten into hunting. The people that we are hunting with had misgivings about the Clumber. “They’re slow dogs. They don’t move at all.” We have changed their minds completely! My husband is working with an almost-3-year-old. At first, he was not into it. Now, something clicks in their brains. That’s all he thinks about: Where’s the bird? Where’s the bird?! 

LR [14:08] Born to do it. This is an old breed that’s been hunting for a very long time. They were designed to hunt through the hedge rows. The heavy head, the skin, and the eyes—all of that—was so that they could get under the birds. 

RF [14:22] They go through. They don’t go around. I tell people they’re the Humvee of the Spaniels. 

JS [14:27] When we first got our Clumber, we had a perfectly groomed backyard with bushes. 

LR [14:34] We all just laughed. 

RF [14:36] You can’t be house-proud. You can’t be yard-proud. 

JS [14:42] No, because they just went through the bushes. Pretty soon, there were no bushes. If they didn’t dig them out, they ate them! So you have to understand: Do you want a perfectly groomed backyard? Or front yard? Or do you want a Clumber? 

LR [15:00] So we talked a little bit earlier about the vetting of Clumbers. Clumbers were a breed, like many, that were really destroyed during WWII. So a very small gene pool brought back to existence. They do have some issues. Let’s talk a little bit about some of what you can run into with a Clumber. 

RF [15:20] Neck and back issues are certainly right up there. I think it’s improved a lot over the 20 years that we’ve been working hard on them. Hip dysplasia is always cited, but honestly, as a veterinarian and a breeder for a long time, a lot of Clumbers have bad hip films but not functionally bad hips. There certainly are some that can have issues, but a lot of dogs—if you put up the radiograph, and it was a Rottweiler or German Shepherd or Golden Retriever, the dog would be crippled. And the dog is out there doing open obedience jumps. 

LR [15:48] Jumping into the back of the pick-up. 

RF [15:50] It’s something to be aware of, but it’s not really detrimental to the breed. IVDD, backs and necks, is probably number one. Angiosarcoma, tumor of the spleen, can be a problem, more so in our breed than numerically you would expect. Autoimmune mediated hemolytic anemia is still a problem. I list them that way because these are the things that can take a dog down fast or can cause significant financial issues for owners if it can be treated at all. Hips can be managed. Backs and necks can be treated. Surgically, it can be done a lot better than it used to be. But it’s expensive. So if you’re going to have a Clumber or multiple Clumbers, pet insurance is a really good thing to think about. I don’t have it because I kind of self-insure, but I’ve had dogs that have needed $6,000 orthopedic surgeries. I self-insure. We have a credit card specifically for the dogs. We need it sometimes. They’re worth every penny of it, but they’re not an inexpensive breed either. You don’t have to be rich to have a dog, but you have to be responsible. You have to know those things might occur. Again, eating things they shouldn’t is number one on the list, more so than anything else. Across the breed, that’s the thing I see as a big problem. 

JS [17:05] All ages. It’s not just for the young. It’s not just puppies. Sometimes they get it into their mind that that’s what they have to do. Six, seven, eight—Harley was nine or ten. 

RF [17:19] I lost a ten-year-old bitch who decided to eat carpet fibers at ten years old. Had never eaten anything in her life! I don’t know why. We lost her to it. 

LR [17:28] Yeah, I know a lot of dogs… Jim, other things that you can think of?

JF [17:30] Well of course we have PDP1 in our breed. It’s an enzyme deficiency where the dogs basically shut down from exercise intolerance. I happen to be the breeder of the dog that had that in my very first litter, a litter that I co-bred with my long-time mentor, Jan Friis. Neither one of us had ever heard of it before, had never had any experience with it before, and we did this breeding to two dogs and we had it. A gentleman by the name of Ron Porous literally bulldogged this disease and its treatment and its founding all the way through multiple sets of universities. They eventually found a test for it. 

RF [18:18] It’s a simple recessive gene. 

JF [18:19] It’s a cell recessive gene. We were lucky at that time. I think when they did the DNA, 23% of the Clumbers were carrying that gene. It was close to becoming an epidemic. Again, there were two litters that were born at relatively the same time—pups from both of those. That’s an issue. But it’s manageable. We know how to deal with it. We have a small gene pool. 

RF [18:48] Carriers never have clinical signs. 

JF [18:50] It’s important to keep our carriers active because we have such a small gene pool, and there’s no reason to not breed a carrier as long as you know that it is. 

RF [18:58] You have to breed it to a clear dog. 

JF [19:00] Breed it to a clear. I advocate also that we should be testing every dog, even if it came from a clear to a clear breeding. I don’t know if there’s ever going to be a genetic mutation in this. Or if there’s just a mistake somewhere in somebody’s paperwork or whatever. Every dog that I put in the breeding program has a hard test, even if it’s a clear to clear.

RF [19:23] I think that’s a really good idea. OFA will register clear by parentage for one generation, so both parents have tested clear and they’re bred together. They will register that offspring as clear. They will not do it for a second generation for exactly that reason! It was a genetic sport at some point. That gene popped up somewhere. Who’s to say it can’t pop up again? I think that that’s really wise. 

JF [19:48] I don’t want to be the guy that’s the oops. 

JS [19:50] I bred two clears together. They should be fine. But—

RF [19:55] It’s nice to know. Many labs run testing for PDP1. Just recently, the University of Missouri did a lot of them for a long time. OFA is now doing that testing. The benefit to the club from that: A) The paperwork is really simple and much easier to access—

LR [20:14] And this is just a cheek-swab, right? 

RF [20:16] Just a cheek-swab. And the benefit now that OFA runs the test, it automatically goes into the CHIC database. The owner doesn’t have to forward the certificate from another lab like they had to do, so that should help our CHIC numbers go up as well. If you get a test done at a different lab if you prefer a different lab, that’s fine. But then as an owner, you have to send that paperwork to OFA to get it submitted into the CHIC database. 

LR [20:40] Excellent. So those are wonderful things to know about the breed. 

JS [20:47] Especially if you’re looking for one, you want to look at all the different health clearances of the parents that you’re buying the puppy from. 

RF [20:54] The parent Club website has breeders’ guidelines: what to look for when you’re buying a puppy, information about the breed—that is a source of information that can’t be beat! 

LR [21:05] Absolutely. And we will provide links on our website to take you to that information for sure. And we will be talking to Rob a little bit later about the Clumber Health Foundation.

JF [21:16] Ask those breeders when you’re calling and talking to them about those health clearances. Any bredeer that’s not going to openly talk to you about health clearances—I’d stay a little clear of them. 

RF [21:27] I’ve always said if you ask a breeder and they say, “Oh, we don’t have any health problems,” run. Because either they’re not looking or they’re not telling. Either one is not a good situation. 

LR [21:36] I wanted to bring up one other thing. I haven’t had a litter in the house for years, but I know that Entropion has always been—this isn’t life-threatening, but it’s something to be aware of. 

RF [21:48] It’s still annoying, and it’s still expensive to fix. 

JS [21:51] A lot of times, even if your dogs don’t have it, a veterinarian that you go to will look at eyes that we would normally pass and say they’re okay—they’ll tell the new owner, “You have to have eye surgery. Your dog is going to go blind.” 

RF [22:08] The conformation of the eyelid in the Clumber Spaniel is different than many other dogs. That V-shape lower lid drives regular vets nuts. They don’t understand they’re supposed to look like that. 

LR [22:18] I think Clumbers are a breed—and this is my assessment (you guys tell me what you think)—in which your breeder is really important. If your breeder is someone who’s been doing it like these guys, for a very long time, they probably know at least as much as your own personal veterinarian who has never seen a Clumber Spaniel. I’m sorry, veterinarians out there listening.

RF [22:42] They’re not mad. I guess a good analogy is I went to a conference once, and it was the parent Club health conference. One of the guys was speaking about fibroid issues. He said, “Your vet doesn’t understand fibroid issues, but listen to what your vet says.” I went up to him afterward, and I said, “You know, some of us understand fibroid.” He looked at me funny. And he said, “Because you trained some of us.” And then he started laughing. I went to another ophthalmology talk, and he said, “You guys have never seen this breed before,” and he was talking about way-excessive facial folds, the brow being too excessive and the surgery to fix it, and I said, “You know, I raise those dogs.” So, some of us do! But really, they’re so rare with 3,000 maybe in the country, a lot of vets just haven’t seen them to know. A good vet should be open to your information that you will bring from your breeder and your parent club. 

JS [23:27] And if they don’t, run. Find another vet. 

RF [23:40] Talk to people in your area that have Clumbers and find out who they use. 

JS [23:45] Being part of the parent club, you get a lot of resources and networking. You’ll find people in your area that have Clumbers. If that person doesn’t know, they know somebody else that does. 

RF [23:58] Big community online, and they’re very willing to help people. Take advantage of that. Listen to them. 

JF [24:05] Even trying to find a knowledgeable veterinarian ophthalmologist can often be a challenge. Our original mentor, Jan Friis, had a wonderful lady that had a wonderful understanding of the Clumber eye. Unfortunately, she passed away. I wandered for a while trying to find another. 

RF [24:24] Dr. Davidson’s really good. She’s in Grand Rapids now. 

JS [24:28] I can’t drive my dogs to Michigan. 

RF [24:33] I’ve run into that! The very first Clumber bitch that I had—my foundation breeding bitch—we were at a show. We took her to be served, had her eyes examined and certified. The vet who did it had mixed breed dogs—which is great; I love mixed breed dogs—but she did not breed dogs. She said, “Oh, she has cataracts! You need to spay her right now.” I was in tears, because I thought, “This is a veterinary ophthalmologist. She must know what she’s doing.” So I surveyed three other veterinarian opthamologists, including Dr. Wheeler that Jim was talking about, who was wonderful with Clumbers. All of them said, “No, no! This is a non-progressive disease. It’s never going to hurt the dog. You can breed her.” I was that close to spaying my foundation bitch! Veterinarians are human beings with different backgrounds and different experiences and different capabilities. You have to find someone that you’re comfortable with that you trust in this knowledge. 

LR [25:25] Just like any other industry. And they have specialties. Not every single veterinarian in the pet community is accustomed to working with breeders, is accustomed to working with rare breeds, is accustomed to some of the issues that are specific to each breed. 

JS [25:43] You go to a vet that is open-minded. “I’ve never seen a Clumber before. Tell me about it.” That’s where you want to go. I send it to all my puppy people. Take your veterinarian letter to them. I’ve had, “Hey, talk to this vet in the area. They’ve seen Clumbers.” 

LR [26:03] Our final topic is judging the Clumber Spaniel in the conformation rings. We’ve talked about living with them, vetting them, hunting them. Now let’s talk about judging them, because again, this is not your average sporting dog. Long, low, and substantial. 9-11 from the withers to the base of the tail. Not from the point of the forechest to the point of the buttocks. Heavy head, furrowed brow. Go! 

JF [26:32] For me, when you’ve been in the breed for a long time, and you have an understanding of what’s rectangular and what’s correct for your length to height proportion, it becomes easy. It’s the training in the sense that a lot of new judges that are coming into the breed because they see rectangular but it’s rectangular from, as Laura mentioned before, point of shoulder to buttocks. It’s not rectangular as we measure. You have to get them to retrain their eyes. I’ve been doing the mission and sporting dog presentation seminars for a number of years. I’ll bring out a dog that has really good proportions as a demo dog to start with. I have a little yardstick that I’ve actually made up. It’s not a wicket but it’s good for the field, and it has the height, the length. I have them measure. I have them put it on. And it actually has the proportions on the side. So you can look at it and go, “Okay, if this dog is this tall, how long should he be? And this is how long he is.” It’s really eye-opening to get people to realize. You’re never going to find one too long. You’re never going to find one that’s too long. 

RF [27:51] They might be a little too short-legged. I never thought I’d say that until I had one. 

LR [27:55] I have seen a few that I think, “Oh, that could use just a little!” They’re not a Sussex, so you have to be careful about that. 

RF [28:04] There’s a lot bigger problem in their too-short back. I was at a specialty a couple of years ago, and I found it really telling because I was sitting in the bleachers just watching, and a young lady was watching who wasn’t a Clumber person. She was just watching. She said, “Boy, that second dog is so much longer than all the rest of them.” And I said, “The second dog is correct.” It's hard. Judges don’t have correct dogs brought to them. They don’t learn to see what correct is. Happily, that judge found the correct dog and put him up for Best of Breed. 

LR [28:35] Two things that I hear from judges: that they misunderstand eye shape (so I want to talk a little bit about that) and they misunderstand showmanship. The bounciest one isn’t the right one. 

RF [28:50] The best groomed doesn’t have the best front.

JS [28:50] The Clumber roll—

LR [28:57] The Clumber trampoline. Jan and I were just talking about this. 

RF [29:05] They don’t bounce. They roll.

LR [29:05] This is side-to-side, not up-and-down. 

JS [29:07] I had somebody say, “You’ve got to go really, really slow so you can see the Clumber roll.” No! You can go at any speed, and you’ll see that Clumber roll. 

LR [29:16] If it’s correct. 

JS [29:18] Not the bounce, but if it’s correct, you should be able to see that Clumber roll.

JF [29:23] This breed has improved so much in its conformation and its structure in the last 30-40 years. There are a couple of judges out there that I won’t even exhibit a dog to anymore because they insist on this breed basically being walked. Our breed has progressed so much to the point where they are so much sounder, so much more correctly put together, that I don’t want to see a dog raced around. I don’t think that’s the proper speed for a Clumber. We belong at the end of groupline. We should have that nice, almost long-legged walk. For me, personally. 

RF [30:00] It’s a steady trot. 

JF [30:02] A steady movement for the dog. To penalize our breed and to try to make it move like it was 30 years ago—they’re out of touch. This is a breed that can move effectively and should be given that opportunity. 

RF [30:15] The judge says, “Walk them. They are the gentleman’s hunting dog.” And I always want to say to that dog, “The hunter may be not moving quickly, but the dog is covering 5x as much ground. The ground is not walking in the field. The dog is trotting at a steady pace doing the job it’s bred to do.” 

JS [30:29] I’ve often asked them, when they tell me to walk (since I’m short; I have short legs) it makes my dog look wreckless with me trying to walk. But have you seen these dogs in the field? Have you actually seen them hunt? 

RF [30:50] Go watch them work, and then you can judge them. 

JS [30:53] They need to watch the field. It’s amazing getting out in the field and watching the Clumbers. Eye-opening.

RF [31:01] Really a different dog in the field. 

LR [31:05] Been there, done that! The only other one that I wanted to speak to very quickly (because it’s something I’m starting to see more and more) is full tails. Jan and I talked about that a week or so ago. How that changes your eye of the dog and the proportion—can you guys speak to that? 

JS [31:25] You’re seeing more and more dogs with the natural tail. Some of the judges are thinking, “Oh, this is a much longer dog.” Because of the tail! 

JF [31:35] It’s the perception of what you see. It adds length.

JS [31:37] So a dog that doesn’t have the long tail but is long is not a shorter dog because it doesn’t have the natural tail! 

RF [31:48] “As a breeder, I’m going to leave the tails on because it makes the dog look longer.” No, it don’t!

LR [31:53] Well, it does, but it doesn’t actually make them longer. Jim, your thoughts on this? Because I know you see a lot out there in your area with and without.

JF [32:02] Right, and when I close my eyes and I envision my ideal Clumber Spaniel, it has a docked tail. On the other hand, from early on when I started judging the breed, I have put tailed dogs up. I have never penalized a dog because it has a tail. We’ve been docking them for 250 years. It’s never been a concern so much about carriage or coat quality and type. There is a wide variety of carriage and coat quality and type, because we never look for it. You had four inches, and that was what you had. Those are important things, too. We don’t have a great description of what a Clumber tail should look like. There are some that are much better than others.

LR [32:50] If you’ll remember Mrs. Billings, one of her biggest things about a Clumber was if it carried a high tail. “My, that dog is proud of its tail!” So the Clumber tail is carried level off the back. 

RF [33:04] Should be level to the spine. 

JS [33:05] The carriage is the same. 

LR [33:10] But that is a part of that picture. It’s not a Cocker tail. It’s not an English Cocker tail. It is straight off the back. Anything else that you guys would like to add on the wonderful smushiness of Clumbers?

RF [33:22] If you think you’re interested in a Clumber, I think every breeder out there—I’m pretty sure, I know the Club recommends it—go and meet them in their home environment. You will be jumped on. You will be slimed. I had a dog that had to have a surgery, and the senior student was reporting to me, and she said, “He’s so much better! He love-mauled me this morning!” This is a perfect description. We’re apologizing to the staff all week at the hotel because the puppies are jumping all over everybody they see because they love people. They want to be part of the family. 

LR [33:53] They should be sweet, mushy, cuddly. Aggression in a Clumber is odd.  

JS [34:00] You will find some that are a little reserved and would prefer, “Wait a minute, let me take you in before you maul me.” I’ve seen where kids just run up and want to smush them. And the dog steps back and goes, “Oh my god. This kid is going to kill me.” 

RF [34:24] Overall they’re charming characters if you can deal with the hair and the slobber. You’ll never have a better family member. You just won’t. 

JS [34:31] And they get along with other breeds of dogs. They can grow up with kids, with any kind of dog—

RF [34:39] Cats if they grew up with them. 

LR [34:41] Alright, well thank you so much to our panelists. We appreciate your time and have a wonderful National!