Episode 59: The Power of Mediation

This week on the Good Dog Pod, host Laura Reeves is joined by Debra Hamilton, Esq. to talk about the power of mediation in resolving issues surrounding dogs. Debra is the owner of Hamilton Law and Mediation and has extensive experience helping breeders, owners, and vets foster peaceful solutions. 

What are the different ways to approach a legal dispute? There are three main ways to settle a legal issue. One, the two parties can choose to negotiate an agreement outside of court, which is done without a third party. Two, a party can choose to pursue litigation, in which both parties have lawyers representing them in a court trial. Finally, the two parties can choose mediation, in which both parties agree to settle the issue with the help of a neutral third party. 

Why is mediation oftentimes the best answer? Mediation allows for both parties to truly listen to each other and understand the other’s intentions. The neutral mediator facilitates the ability to listen, and helps both parties be more open and less defensive. Oftentimes, problems arise because someone was overwhelmed and said something they didn’t really intend to say. Mediation can help in these sorts of situations, including owner-veterinarian disputes, breeder-buyer disputes, owner-handler disputes, and more. If encountering a problem, do not jump to litigation or write a bad review online; that would immediately ruin mendable relationships. Debra has a book on mediation in conflict over animals called Nipped in the Bud, Not in the Butt. Always remember that no matter what the issue is, the most important thing is to keep the animal’s best interest in mind. 

If you have any questions for Debra, reach out to her here or send an email to info@hamiltonlawandmediation.com.

Transcript

Laura Reeves [0:40] Welcome to the Good Dog Pod! I am your host, Laura Reeves, and I’m really looking forward to this conversation today. I’m being joined by Debra Hamilton from Hamilton Law and Mediation. We are going to talk about a perhaps little-known (or lesser-known-than-it-should-be) aspect of the legal profession, and that is specifically about mediation. There are so many opportunities in dogs where things go a little sideways. They can be addressed—Debra, don’t you think?—with mediation in so many instances without having to proceed to an actual court date. 

Debra Hamilton [1:26] Laura, I’m so glad you said that. My profession ten years ago was litigation. I was a litigator. And I realized that my clients never won when we went to litigation. They won, but they didn’t win—especially when you’re a breeder or an owner. You lose your veterinarian relationship. You lose your breeder relationship. You lose your owner relationship. If you go to litigation—if you go straight to guns (which is what I call litigation)—you don’t have the opportunity to take a step back, take a breath, and really actively listen to what is being said, what’s being felt, the emotions that are driving what’s being said and felt. Eleven years ago now, I stopped litigating. I hung up my litigation pumps, and I don’t litigate. If somebody asks me to litigate—and I was really good—I say, “I’m sorry. I really don’t think it serves us in the animal realm.” Whether it’s a relationship breakup, breeder/owner/handler disagreement, veterinarian disagreement, landlord/tenant disagreement (you name it), I handle all of them, but I handle them before they go to litigation because, at that point, most of the time, both parties have a minute in their hearts to listen to each other—if you simply stop that boulder from running downhill. 

LR [2:42] I love that, Debra. I really do. Because the boulder running downhill has tried to run over me a couple of times, so I get that. I think it’s a really apt description. Why don’t you go from top to bottom? Let’s talk specifically: What is mediation? Then we can talk about some instances where it can be applied very successfully. 

DH [3:04] Let me start, and I’m sure your audience will know that there are basically three types of disagreement approaches. You can either negotiate an agreement where the two of you can have a conversation and maybe work out a solution to the disagreement—and I have found when pets are involved, that’s sometimes really hard to do by yourself. You only hear half of what the other party is saying. There’s litigation, where you have somebody representing you and making sure you get exactly what you asked them to get you. However, there might have been a middle ground there that you’re missing because they’re doing all the talking for you. That was what I did. And then there’s mediation, which is a practice. I won’t arbitrate, Laura. I just won’t. Because that means I’m making the decision for the parties. To me, that’s an enigma, because I don’t live with that dog. I don’t know what the relationship was with these people. It’s like being a judge in court. I don’t agree with those decisions either, although some people really rely on them and there is a place for them if people cannot decide what to do. But I don’t do arbitrations. I simply do mediations. The quick and dirty about mediation is that it’s a voluntary process. The parties have to agree to participate. They can or cannot bring attorneys. It doesn’t matter. The mediator is a neutral third party who comes in and facilitates your ability to listen. Most people say it facilitates your ability to talk. Well, yeah, it does. It gives you the opportunity to be heard, because I’m going to listen to you, Laura, and I’m also going to listen to the person you have a disagreement with, and I’m going to hold a safe space. You might think I’m Sibyl because I have two different personalities because how can you listen and say, “I hear what you’re saying,” to Mary Jane and “I hear what you’re saying” to Laura? However, when I’m saying I hear you and I rephrase (what’s called looping during mediation; I say back what I hear that you’ve said), it turns out that the other party hears it in a different way. We all come to disagreements with our own perspectives and perceptions. We run with them. We run with them 90 miles an hour because we are completely right. I wrote a book six years ago now, Nipped in the Bud, Not in the Butt: How to Use Mediation to Resolve Conflicts Over Animals. It is on Amazon. It’s a fun book. Everybody who reads it gives it a 5. It was a bestseller (still is) in its category. But I have three things that people can do, and this is how I describe mediation: It makes you stop talking and listen because you’re there with someone who’s going to hold a safe space, so you’re not attacked; yet, you’re able to listen to the other party, and they’re able to listen to you. The mediator helps you drop the need to be right because you are. Nobody can make you wrong. Only if you absolutely hold the feeling that Laura is making you wrong. No, that’s Laura’s opinion of this situation. You aren’t wrong. I always say—and a friend of mine who’s like an English major—I go, “You’re righter if you listen first,” and they go, “Really, there’s no word like that.” I said, “Yes, but you are!” Because you hear everything Laura says, and you go, “You know, Laura, I agree with you here and I agree with you here and I agree with you here.” So you’re now shifting the trajectory from disagreement to agreement. You can find a path toward a resolution. The last part is stop, drop, and roll. You remember that from when we were young and people said we were on fire. When you’re in conflict, it is as if your whole body is on fire. Let it roll off your back, because you know what, it might just be that Debra had a really bad day. When she turned around and snapped at you, she just really didn’t know she was doing it or did it without thinking and maybe doesn’t have the skillset to apologize later on. I love when Brené Brown has created this sentence. It’s a perfect mediation sentence. The story I’m telling myself is, Laura, that you nailed me for not putting all the products away at the dog show right or sweeping the floor, and you really were disrespecting me. And you turn around and say, “You know, you’re right. I was disrespectful.” Or you would say, “You know, that wasn’t what I meant at all. I was so mad about what happened in the ring or about what somebody said to me—and you were just the first person I came to to let it go. I felt safe with you, and I want to apologize.” You give that person the opportunity to see if your perspective of what they said is what they meant. It also gives that other party an oh shit moment, where they say, “That’s not what I really wanted her to feel when I said that. I’d like to have a deeper conversation and really appreciate whatever.” So mediation to me is that process that gives you the opportunity to have the conversation. You can’t have a negotiation. But it doesn’t take your ability to litigate away. That’s the other reason I hate arbitration. You’re giving somebody else the opportunity to make the decision for you. In mediation, if you have a really good mediator who is able to hold a safe space for everyone—and I can say I know about five mediators who I would trust with animal issues, because I can honestly tell you… Most mediators want to run with their hair on fire with people arguing over pets because it’s all emotion. The contracts that we discuss and we argue about are on paper. I often say to people, “Did you read the contract before you signed it?” And they go, “Yeah.” I say, “Did you understand what it meant?” “Well, yeah.” I say, “Did anybody say anything different?” “Well, she said this or she said that,” and I said, “Did you write that down in the contract and initial it and change it to say that?” “No.” I say, “Well, then we have a little bit of a problem, so let’s talk about what you understood it to be. Do you have any contemporaneous writings of that?” So you calm them down. Especially in breeder/owner contracts. Holy Toledo! People will agree to standing on their head in Main Street every third Wednesday of the month in order to get a dog. And then they don’t understand why they’re held to standing on their head on Main Street every third Wednesday. I say, “Yeah, but you signed this.” And they go, “Yeah, but I didn’t think she’d keep me to it.” And I said, “Well, yeah.” 

LR [9:09] That’s why we wrote it!! 

DH [9:12] I talk them off the ledge, and I go, “I get it. You don’t want to stand on your head. Let’s talk with Laura and see if we can work out a better way. Maybe you can just sit on the bus stop on Main Street every third Wednesday instead of standing on your head. Let’s see how we can shift it.” I’ve had such incredible cases where I read the contracts or I look at the relationship breakups or I look at the veterinary malpractice, and I go, “Oh my god! I wish I had gotten there before they really burned every bridge.” You and I both know people simmer for a long, long time before they explode when they disagree. If I could get them, at the first instance, to ask that one question: “You know, Laura, the story I’m telling myself when you say that to me is…” — it would stop my work! I would be out of work. 

LR [9:58] You wouldn’t have a job. 

DH [9:59] It would make me so happy. But that’s not what happens, unfortunately. 

LR [10:04] Well, Debra, you just brought up a really interesting conversation. When we talk about legal stuff, we don’t often think about this. We think about the breeder/buyer and that sort of thing. You were mentioning to me earlier that you’re doing a lot of work with veterinary clinics. We all know everything right now is difficult—for veterinarians, for veterinarian staff, for owners who would like to get their dog seen. Everybody is under pressure. Talk a little bit about that and ways that my listeners can borrow a little bit of skill set from you in their interaction with their veterinarians. 

DH [10:44] I’m so glad you asked that, because between trying to enforce paragraphs of a contract as a breeder, I always say, “You need to have that conversation early.” Don’t walk up to someone two years later and say, “You owe me a litter.” You should be having that discussion all the way along. Same thing with veterinarians and their practices now. Transparency is key! So your client is not going to be so frustrated. I’ll give you a complete example. My dog just went off with the handler, and I had to take it to the vet. I’ve been with my vet for 25 years. I love my vet. I sat outside, and all these people were going in ahead of me, I presumed, because I’m sitting there and no one’s coming to get my dog, and I am chomping at the bit. Because of what I do, I sat there and I breathed. I said, “This is just my perception. Maybe these dogs are post-surgical and coming in for post-surgical. Maybe they’re coming in for their nails to be cut. Their anal glands to be done. Maybe there’s a priority here. Maybe I should ask questions.” Which we don’t. We just presume that you have not kept me in the queue the right way, and when I get you, I’m going to blast you. I really found myself wanting to blast the poor vet tech who came out, like, 30 minutes after my appointment was to get Juni. I sat there and, thank god, I know the breathing techniques, the out-of-the-box-thinking techniques that I teach people, because it may be that you’re 100% right and they suck at time management and they don’t keep you on scale. Well, then, what I always say to the people who come to me: “So this is one event that has driven you nuts, and I get it, and you want to really wring their necks. Let’s write them an email and say: I was just there. I’d love to share with you three things. One was I would’ve loved a little more heads-up that it would have taken 30 minutes for me to get in. I understand these are different times, but it really would have helped me with my anxiety and my dog’s anxiety sitting in the parking lot to know that. Send me a text. Secondly, let me know even before I come. I know the vet’s times are crunchy now. First of all, their practice has expanded by at least a third in most instances, maybe even half–

LR [12:57] And they’ve lost staff at the same time. While they’re expanding their practice, they’re losing staff and/or training new staff.

DH [13:04] Right, so you’re in this quagmire of not having enough staff to address things, not having enough trained staff and experienced staff and staff that has a relationship with clients. You have new clients who nobody has a relationship with. And new clients who have never had a dog before. That’s even scarier. I understand that it can be really trying and you really want to let them have it because it was ridiculous that I sat in the parking lot for an hour and a half for a 5-minute health-check. He was healthy. I just needed that little piece of paper! But what you need to know is that it’s going to be a little longer, and I have a colleague who’s one of the premiere front desk managers for vet practices, and she actually put on her website a transparency form that every vet could steal and use. These are the six things you should tell your client before they come. Everybody could have stolen it! I think maybe five people took it. There are more than five vets in the United States, so I think that’s a little low. But you really need to be proactive. That’s what I’d love for all of your listeners to understand: If your veterinarian isn’t proactive, be proactive. When you make an appointment, say, “What can I expect? Can you give me a little bit of a heads-up on how long it’s going to take? Would you like me to let you know about my experience once I leave and not on Yelp?” Oh my god, if you want to end a relationship immediately, please put all of your anger into an email in Yelp. If you want to write to Yelp, write to me instead. I will help you get off the ledge. Laura will provide my email. Write to me. 

LR [14:38] Debra, I just love that. I think it is so important. Yes, there are situations where veterinarians make mistakes. We know that. They’re human. Everybody makes mistakes. But let’s just, like you said, back away from the ledge for a minute and think. I always like to talk about standing in someone else’s shoes. Be that vet tech who hasn’t had a chance to pee since 7AM and is still busting her butt and it’s 100 degrees and she’s run out to that parking lot 50 times already, and it’s 10AM. 

DH [15:15] And no one’s really happy out in the parking lot. 

LR [15:19] Nobody’s happy! Everybody is doing the best they can. 

DH [15:24] I’ll share with you, Laura, that you’re right. Vets are not perfect. Vets make mistakes. Absolutely. There’s a number of websites to trash vets. I’m often discussing it with them and saying, “Listen, sometimes it’s not the vet’s choice that they can’t speak to you. Their malpractice provider tells them not to.” This is my mission in life! My mission in life is to have the paradigm shift for veterinary malpractice, because most veterinarians, if they’re supported in a mediated environment where they’re safe, where they can have a conversation that’s confidential so you can’t use anything that’s said in mediation in a future trial—

LR [16:00] That’s a really important thing to note. 

DH [16:03] If you talk to a lot of litigation attorneys, they go, “Debra, the genie is out of the bottle.” Of course, my answer to that is, “Well, if your vet did something terrible, wouldn’t they like to solve it in a confidential environment than have their license reviewed?” And what I always work for in my mediations is I always work to have the pet owner work with the veterinarian on that age-old desire. Please don’t let this happen to another dog! If I include the pet owner whose pet was affected by the mistakes that were made (either that were life-threatening or just were injurious), most of the time (and I can say this with authority because it’s happened in my cases) the pet owner will go on and say, “Listen, Dr. Smith made a mistake with my dog. But not only did he listen to me about the mistake with my dog, he included me in the solution. I gave him a lot of ideas. He took one of my ideas. Or he didn’t take one of my ideas, but it was an idea I thought would really work as well.” Because what you want to do is be partners. That’s what mediation allows you to do. You’re not adversaries. You’re partners in finding a solution to better serve pet owners, veterinarians, and the pet. That’s who I always say I represent: the pet in the room. 

LR [17:20] I think that that, Debra, also applies—transitioning back to our breeder/buyer relationships. The same thing applies. What is the best thing for this dog? What is the best solution? Putting the prioritization on the wellbeing of the animal, not egos or the heartstrings or the whatevers. 

DH [17:45] It often bothers me—and I have to be totally honest and transparent—when breeders say, “Return me the dog, and I’ll refund your money.” That is never going to happen. Most people are not going to return the dog. You can offer them another one, but maybe that’s not the best if you’ve had a rocky relationship. My thought is always to offer to return the money, not the dog. Or at least half the money, not the dog. Because people love their dogs. They might have three legs now or they might have chronic skin issues or whatever they have. As breeders, if you had come to one of my conscious conversation programs where you learn to speak to someone where you listen more… Breeders are notorious for just reading their contract and saying, “Paragraph 7 says this, and if you don’t do Paragraph 7, I’m taking the dog back!” That’s a real relationship builder, Laura. That is a real relationship builder. I mean, I sit there and I say to the breeder, “Okay, this person has a dog that you want to use in your breeding program. You do have seven paragraphs that say you’ve got to do this and this and this. Have you spoken to them during the 2-3 years that they had the dog to build them up to know that they have to give you the dog to be shown?” When I see some of these contracts, it might not be all the Good Dog people, but the breed people: “I get three litters back, you have to pay for every test known to man in this breed, you have to pay a handler to show your dog.” I always say to the buyers, “Did you ask them how much that would cost?” And they say, “No, we just wanted the dog.” I said, “Well, that’s about a $10,000 number right there.” If you have to hire a professional handler to handle your dog to its championship before it’s two, I have to tell you… I have had five people call me who bought dogs who were required to go to obedience within the first six months. They were in someone’s home and they bought the dog during Covid. They called me and said, “If she enforces this, it says here that she can take the dog back!” And I said, “Yes, she can. Because you signed it. You didn’t ask that question during Covid.” Listen, there’s nobody training dogs. I mean, they are online. If you really are industrious, you can do that. However, the breeder really has to be the partner and the mentor of the puppy owner. You and I have had this conversation. 

LR [19:55] I actually just did another conversation here on the Good Dog Pod talking about contract over-reach. I think that as responsible breeders, we need to keep in mind that buyers will often go to a disreputable source because we have (and I had another conversation on this) protected our breeds to death. We are in the process of doing that.

DH [20:24] We should protect our breeds, but we should bring people in with an open heart. I’ve had a friend who wanted to buy a Vizsla, and the Vizsla people said, “You haven’t owned one before, so we won’t let you have one.” I mean, really?! Are you kidding me? I get it. Irish Setters, too. You really don’t want to give them. Your dogs as well. You really don’t want to give them to a novice because they’re going to run with their hair on fire, but that’s why. This is a repeat buyer. This is a repeat buyer. This is a new buyer. I have to be in their bed every day for the first six months so that this is successful. If it isn’t successful, understanding it isn’t successful—getting the dog back and giving them their money back. A) You don’t want your dog in a situation where the person feels really overwhelmed and B) You do want to bring people along to really love your breed because that’s the sustaining of purebred dogs. Otherwise, we’re just going to have a lot of dogs from shelters. That’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. But really if you want an Irish Setter or a Pointer, you’re just going to want to find somebody who’s a reputable breeder. Being a reputable breeder really means: “Okay, I have six paragraphs in my contract that you signed and one of them says three litters back. These people are really just incapable of doing it.” You know, the bitches are harder than the dogs because the dogs you can just collect and let them go. The bitches are harder. But recognize: Is it better to keep the dogs in a phenomenal home with two people in the middle-age and retirement than to get three litters back from them? Get one litter back. Maybe get two litters back. But you have to be diligent in building that relationship. You can’t just tell them, “Paragraph 4! It’s time!” I just want to choke the life. Because, first of all, being an attorney, that plays into the animal-law-people’s hands and the animal-rights-people’s hands immediately, because you are an unreasonable puppy mill. You aren’t. You’re trying to sustain your breed, especially your breed, which has low numbers, and my breed, which has low numbers. I want to hold onto these bitches. I can’t keep them all, but I’d like to have a litter or two with them. I’m going to make sure they live in a phenomenal home. If I get a litter out of them, great, move forward. If I get two, fabulous, great. 

LR [22:30] And if I don’t ever get a litter, what is more important? The dog! 

DH [22:35] Right! That is the bottom line.

LR [22:37] I’ve been-there-done-that more times than I can even begin to count. It happens. What is the most important part?! The dog. Period.

DH [22:47] So if you take it back, you have to give them money. 

LR [22:50] Or let it live out its days.

DH [22:54] If they want to get rid of it, they go, “Yeah, but I already spent X amount of money on this.” I always put in my contracts that you get a full refund for your dog for the life of the dog, because I want you to call me, not give it to the neighbor and then I’ll never find it. That really puts me over the edge. That’s the breeder’s fault. If your person gives the dog that they signed a contract for that they couldn’t place it without a written right of refusal from you, and they place it, well that’s your fault. Because you haven’t kept in good touch with them and established and continued to support a relationship. That’s why mediation is so important to me, coming full circle. Because it creates that opportunity to have conversations that are difficult. Sometimes (you and I both know) there are some owners who suck the oxygen out of the room. And we love them, and they’re a great home for our dogs. Don’t get us wrong! But they will drive you over the edge and down the other side. I get it. In fact, I have two or three friends who say, “I can’t believe you still sell dogs to these people.” And I said, “You know what, they’re the greatest homes. They do obedience. They do agility. Do they take a lot of calories? Yes, they do. But I can’t find a better home for a dog.” Single or just two adults. They dedicate their lives to these dogs. So, yeah. They have a lot of questions, and it’s the same question over and over. 

LR [24:11] And that’s okay. 

DH [24:12] That’s why mediation works so well. You can address that. “So, Laura, you’ve asked that question twice now. Are you finding that the answer that Debra is providing is helping you?” No, it’s not, because I still want to know! So you get to the crux, and then they recognize what is the trigger for Debra. Please don’t ask me again, that question, and then what you can do. “I know this question triggers you, but I am so worried about Fluffy’s ears. So I’m just really worried.” It gives you that opportunity to have that conversation that you can’t have one-on-one because I come to you at a really bad time in the middle of a dog show to have a deep conversation. That’s not happening. I call you on a day when you’re whelping puppies. Not happening! I call you on a day right before you’re leaving on a two week dog show. Not happening! I don’t know that. I just think you’re ignoring me. When I hang up the phone, what I think is: she’s ignoring me. She doesn’t care about me, and I’m just not going to cooperate with her at all. If that’s the case, you as the breeder want to bring a mediator in because you want to choke the life! Don’t they know I have a life other than speaking to them? But I can’t get rid of that feeling and that perspective. They can’t get rid of their feelings and their perspective. If you bring a third party in, with mediation (which is infinitely less expensive), it usually takes about 4-6 hours. I only do 2 hours at a time, Laura. It gets so emotional. 

LR [25:34] That’s a lot. I was going to say I’ve been involved in some of these. It’s a lot. 

DH [25:38] When they beat the snot out of you for 8 hours, you agree to shit just because you don’t want to do it again. You don’t want to come back. So I always say, “I only do this for 2 hours because it’s emotional for me. It’s emotional for you guys. I want the agreement you come to to stick. I don’t want you to agree to something simply to get off the Zoom.” That’s what I always do. Mediations for me have been on Zoom since 2010 or 2011. As you know, we breeders sell dogs all over the country. To get somebody from Oregon to talk to someone in Virginia who they bought the dog from is impossible because it’s just logistically and expensively impossible. I’ve been using Zoom to do this. I always thought when I did this that somebody would hang up. When you said something that pissed me off, I would just hang up! I was mesmerized that they never hung up because they didn’t want the mediator to think they weren’t trying to work it out. 

LR [26:30] Right. I love it. Well, Debra, this is such good information. I’m really excited to offer this up for our listeners to have some great ideas. We may very well be able to have some more conversations, some conscious conversations, along the way. 

DH [26:48] Absolutely! Let your listeners know that what they want to do in their contract if they can, some of them have arbitration clauses in their contracts. They don’t want that. Because they are taken out of the decision-making if something goes awry, and you can’t go to court.

LR [27:04] Can you replace that with a mediation clause?

DH [27:05] You can! It, of course, doesn’t take it out of court. Because if you replace it with a mediation—now, all the litigators will tell you you never want to do that because you can’t go straight to court and you have to mediatie. Well, that’s really what you want because it’s a little less expensive, and you might be able to work it out. And if you don’t work it out, you still have all your rights and abilities to sue someone in court. I always say to anybody who wants some language, just give me a ring. It really is important to facilitate that discussion to maintain a relationship between the people with the dogs, the people who are pet service providers or breeders, and also to maintain that the animal is kept in the best place it can be maintained. That’s what we all want! Especially Good Dog. All the dogs are good. 

LR [27:52] The dogs are never the problem!