Episode 68: Breeder to Breeder: Stillborn Puppies

Laura Reeves, Susan Patterson, and Gayle Watkins begin the Breeder to Breeder series with one of the toughest topics in breeding: stillborn puppies. 

Gayle begins the discussion by reviewing a study that was published in 2019, analyzing data from 2,500 whelpings. The biggest takeaway from the study is that stillborn puppies are common in dogs, and breeders should be prepared for this. Among the dogs studied (in this case, larger breed dogs), litters with 5-8 puppies had the lowest rate of stillborn puppies. Litters with fewer than 5 actually had the highest rate, with large litters also having high instances of stillborn puppies.

The three birthing methods that have statistically the same stillborn rates are: natural whelpings with no dystocia, planned c-sections, and natural whelpings that might have uterine problems but that are resolved with calcium alone. Birthing methods that are problematic with regards to stillborn rates are: emergency c-sections (especially when oxytocin is used) as well as using mechanical manipulation to get the puppies out.

Susan gives a rundown of how to give your dogs oral calcium supplements, which can help alleviate some whelping-related issues and decrease the chance of stillborn puppies. She then follows up with situations in which using oxytocin can be useful during the whelping process.

Gayle continues her summary of the study, describing how the time in between puppies being born is correlated with the rate of stillborn puppies - the conventional wisdom of 2 hours between puppies may be too long! If you find yourself at 45 minutes between puppies, it may be in your interest to give your dog calcium. Susan also recommends regularly feeding your bitch (Susan does this through a syringe) while they are in active labor to help them maintain their energy.

Continue listening for tips on tools and techniques you can use to help ease your bitch through the process of labor!

Transcript

Laura Reeves [0:40] Hey, everybody. Welcome, and thank you for joining us. As we launch into our new and exciting Breeder to Breeder series over the next few months, just a quick reminder: Susan Patterson, Gayle Watkins, and I have over 120 years of combined breeding experience but we are not veterinarians. Although we can offer you proven, research-based suggestions, we are not providing veterinary advice. 

LR [1:14] Welcome to the Good Dog Pod! I am your host, Laura Reeves, and today we’re going to kick off a series of podcasts that we are so excited about. This is the Breeder to Breeder series, and I am going to be visiting with our breeder experts at Good Dog. Susan Patterson and Gayle Watkins and I are going to talk about some really important things that we can share with you, as breeders. So this is just a very new and very exciting concept. Welcome, you guys. I’m super excited for these conversations. 

Susan Patterson [1:53] Thanks, Laura.

Gayle Watkins [1:54] Really happy to be here, Laura. Thank you for including us. 

LR [1:57] Excellent. So today’s topic that we’re going to cover is one that’s probably one of the toughest to tackle. I figured we’d just take this on. We’ll take the big one first. That’s stillborn puppies. When we breed our first litter, we all have these visions of daisies and puppy breath, and sometimes it doesn’t go that way. So what we want to talk about today is really good research and statistical information that talks about how to prevent stillborn puppies and what may be causing this. Yes, Gayle?

GW [2:32] Absolutely. Most of the information that I’m thinking about these days came from a 2019 study done by Cornelius Moxon and a number of other people at one of the major guide dog institutes. They looked at just under 2,500 whelpings. We never get that number of cases to be able to really get some good information out of. 

LR [3:05] And, actually, key detailed records. I tell people all the time: some of the best knowledge and best information that we have as dog breeders comes from these companies, the guide dog organizations, that are breeding hundreds of litters a year. If you’ve got 2,500 whelpings to look at, and you’re keeping detailed records, this is invaluable information—and it’s relatively new. So, Gayle, hit us with our key takeaways from this study.

GW [3:33] I think the first takeaway (and I suspect this is not news to you guys) is that stillborn puppies are common in dogs. And it is something that, as breeders, we have to get our arms around and be able to accept. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do everything we can do to avoid it. But they are common in dogs. It’s one of the reasons dogs have so many puppies. They’re not all going to make it. Some of them don’t even get to take their first breath.

LR [4:06] I literally just had this conversation. I have a fellow who has one of my bitches that I bred that I am guiding through the process of whelping and raising his first litter. And he had 4 stillborn—in a litter of 15, I might add. So I told him that exact thing. There’s a reason that dogs have so many puppies. I think that’s a great place to start. Part of what we see with stillborn—and, Susan, maybe you can speak to this in your experience as well—is numbers of puppies. 

SP [4:37] I think one of the things I want to get off the table first, before we talk about stillborn puppies is stillborn litters. I have had an entire stillborn litter of 8. So, before we talk about the study, I think we might want to just get that off the table, that there can be things like an infection in the uterus. There can be genetic issues. There is also—but it’s not well-studied—the incompatibility of the puppies with the mother. These are things where the puppies come to almost term (not quite term, but almost term). Maybe instead of 60-63 days, puppies will come at 55 days, and they are all deceased.

LR [5:26] I have had one of those litters as well. I think we can do an entire podcast on that topic. 

SP [5:33] Before we go into the study, I think it’s important just to say that right from the beginning, and now we can push it aside for another thing, because those are some of the things that A) I’ve dealt with personally but that I also deal with in my reproduction group on Facebook. I think it is important, like Gayle said, to talk about it as something that we can sometimes not do anything about—but sometimes we can and that’s where our testing in the beginning comes from.

GW [6:03] I know we’ve talked about it before, and we’re going to talk about it again. Emotional resiliency as a breeder is essential to be able to, not just survive being a breeder, but really enjoy it and thrive. If you’re looking at a litter—let’s say if you’re looking at a litter of 11 beautiful puppies, and all you can think about is the 4 you lost, then you’re missing the journey, which is the 11 that you have. So maybe that’s another podcast we can do at some point. 

LR [6:39] We’re just getting more ideas! Back to what we’re talking about: let’s start with where I think (and I think the study backs me up; Gayle, correct me if I’m wrong) that much of what we see with stillborn puppies is when we have really large numbers in a litter of puppies.

GW [6:57] Litter size is huge in looking at stillborn puppies. Interestingly enough, it’s small litters and large litters. So what’s the best size? It is the 2 cortiles—the middle half of average for your breed. In this case, in this study, they were primarily looking at large-breed dogs, because it’s a guide dog colony. It’s German Shepherds. It’s Golden Retrievers. It’s Labradors. And then it’s combinations of Labs and Goldens, the cross-breds. So that average litter size is going to be about 5. For litters that were 5-8, lowest rate of stillborn. Litters under 5, actually the highest rate of stillborns. 

LR [7:49] Wow. See, this is why we do research! We think we know stuff! 

GW [7:55] Absolutely. So the issue for the really small litters was slightly more than the really large litter size.

SP [8:04] It was about 10% more. 

GW [8:05] And it ties to dystocia. Dystocia (or whelping problems where labor is not moving along) is also directly correlated with the number of stillborns. Natural whelpings with dystocia have significantly more stillborns than natural whelpings without any kind of whelping issues, and planned C-sections. So those are the things. I’ll just move to birthing method for just a second, and then we’ll go back to litter size because there’s more to it. But the 3 kinds of birthing methods that have basically statistically the same stillborn rate are: natural whelpings with no dystocia, planned C-sections, and natural whelpings that might have uterine problems but they are resolved with calcium alone. You know we have talked about calcium, and we’re going to do a whole section—

LR [9:02] We’re going to talk some more about it. 

GW [9:04] It’s a complicated issue. But this study shows that calcium is effective in keeping puppies alive during whelping. So where do we run into problems with birthing methods? Emergency C-sections, especially emergency C-sections where oxytocin is used. And across the board, oxy increases the number of stillborns, whether it’s a C-section or whether it’s a natural whelping. As does manual manipulation, mechanical manipulation. 

LR [9:41] Trying to get the puppy out. 

GW [9:42] Trying to get the puppy out increases still born rate. So the takeaway for me was obviously shoot for those natural whelpings, but if you’re running into any problem: calcium first. Calcium foremost! Absolutely before every C-section, there should be calcium given. It’s interesting that what the 3 of us have seen in our groups for years is actually being shown to benefit both puppies and bitches. 

LR [10:16] And, Susan, talk to us about (and I know Gayle, the same thing)—you’re talking oral calcium. We’re not trying to do an injection or any of that kind of stuff, right? Don’t get people all freaked out here. We’re just giving them calcium!

SP [10:28] We never advocate any form of sub-q or injectable calcium. The reason we don’t is that it can definitely impact heart, irregular arrhythmias.

LR [10:40] In the mother or in the puppies? 

SP [10:42] In the mother. And the last thing you need is a mother dog who is having heart problems, who’s stressed trying to deliver. So, oral calcium does not react in the same way. The best and most efficient calcium to use is calcium citrate. That can be purchased in a straight powder. You can buy it: citral. That does come with Vitamin D. But it immediately starts work once it hits the mucus membrane. It does not need food to work. A lot of people have started using TUMS but TUMS—and I have seen it in friends who have used TUMS and then had to go in for a C-section, and at the bottom of the stomach are these pills because it did not work because there was no food in order to appropriately metabolize the TUMS. This is why calcium citrate. Calcium citrate combines with oxytocin to make it stronger. So if you’re using calcium, and you have to go in for a C-section, you need to let your vet know and they will probably be pretty pleased because then they don’t have to worry about having extra calcium. But that’s always really important.

GW [11:50] And the order of those two things matters, just as Susan just said. Calcium first. Then oxy. If you need to do oxy, you want to make sure the calcium is in there first. 

LR [12:05] Please, again—I know the answer, but one of you guys—oxytocin is the injectable that your veterinarian will use when they are attempting to avoid having to take your bitch to an emergency C-section. 

GW [12:23] Absolutely. And it is a very effective drug, and it triggers contraction. Calcium strengths contractions. Oxytocin starts contractions. A lot of times with dystocia, nothing is happening. You can’t see any contractions. The bitch is just sitting there. If you’re going to use oxy, you must make sure there isn’t a puppy blocking the birth canal. Essential! So it is typically going to be best used by your veterinarian after they have examined the bitch; most likely after they have done an X-ray. They can see the positioning of the puppies. And now they can say: “I’m going to use oxytocin. That puppy is ready to be born. It’s not blocking the birth canal. Let’s use oxy.” My recommendation is always if your vet gives your bitch an oxytocin injection, stay at the clinic—even if you are in the parking lot. Because if things go awry, that uterus is going to contract no matter what. If a puppy is by chance stuck or something is going wrong, you want to be able to get back into that clinic. I tell people, “Just pack your go bag. Sit in the parking lot.” A lot of vets will give you a spare room, and you can just plunk your blankets down. You’ve got all your stuff there. If she pops out the puppies, great. And if she doesn’t, help is literally right around the corner. As opposed to an hour or a two-hour drive away. 

LR [13:56] Susan?

SP [13:57] Well, the other thing that (as Gayle said) works really well is—it works well because it kind of pushes the puppies out—but people don’t realize if you have dystocia, there could very well be a puppy blocking the way. That is nature’s way of protecting the bitch. Because if that bitch keeps pushing, the uterus ruptures and we have more problems. The other thing is—and this has happened to me—I have had a stillborn puppy which we determined was the last puppy coming out. There was no heartbeat. Ultrasound. And we decided, rather than going in for a C-section, that we would instead use perhaps a little more oxytocin. Because it is harder to push out a dead puppy than it is a live puppy. A live puppy pushes against the uterus and helps its way out, whereas a dead puppy is like lifting dead weight. So that’s another use for oxytocin, where you do have definite stillborn and no heartbeat via ultrasound, and you know it’s not blocking the way. That’s a good use. While I’m a big believer in using a C-section appropriately, there are times where, if the last puppy is deceased, then you know it. Why put your dog under extra surgery that isn’t necessary if you can get the puppy out? 

LR [16:17] So these are good. These are very, very good. Now let’s talk about—Gayle and/or Susan, whichever one of you guys wants to jump in on this—how do you define dystocia? I know how I do. If it’s past 2 hours, we have a problem. That’s my basic rule of thumb. Any thoughts on that, Gayle?

GW [16:35] Yes. So this research actually changed my thinking about that, Laura. 

LR [16:41] Excellent! That’s why we’re using it! This is perfect.

GW [16:43] So I was on track with you, and I always said that we want to see puppies every 2 hours. I know there’s lots of discussion about whelping pauses, but I also know the longer we wait, the more likely that puppy is not going to be born alive. Yes, we all have stories of puppies born 36 hours after everybody else. They are like playing the lottery.

LR [17:06] That’s the exception, not the norm. 

SP [17:08] It’s a whelping pause, until it’s not. When it’s not… You can’t just sit there and go, “Oh, it’s a whelping pause!” Like, no we need to do something now.

LR [17:17] So, Gayle, what does the study say that changes our mind?

GW [17:22] So the study looked at what’s known as the inter-pup interval. This isn’t the first puppy. This is between, during a whelping. The first puppy is already born. When should the next puppy be born? I’ve always gone on the 2 hours. I’m going to be at the vet 2 hours for an exam, and things like this. Well, what the study showed was there was a massive jump in stillborn rates between below 60 minutes and everything above 60 minutes. Literally, below 60-62 minutes between puppies was a significant increase in stillborn rates. It went from 4% to 14%. 

LR [18:02] In 2 minutes?!

GW [18:04] Less than 62, up to 62. So, big, big jump. Now we’re looking at 1 in 10 more puppies that will be stillborn because of that. They started looking at an average inter-pup interval for living puppies versus stillborn. The average was 65 minutes for living puppies, 102 minutes for stillborn puppies. You and I in our 120 are waiting too long. And then they looked at the median—the most common—and it was 32 minutes between puppies for live puppies. So, what this changed for me and for my last 2 litters was that I am now acting at 45 minutes. Before, it was probably closer to 90 minutes—an hour and a half.

LR [19:06] I’m good for an hour and a half. Then I start to get a little antsy. 

GW [19:08] Exactly. So I have backed that up to 45 minutes. Now it is time to start doing something to help that puppy in case it’s a stuck puppy and all of the other issues that we face. I thought that was really enlightening. But what can we do? We’re going to do another session on that.

LR [19:30] Yeah, that’s our next topic. We’re going to get to talking about what causes it and what the study is showing us about them. And then I want to talk about: What do we do at 45 minutes? I’m at 45 minutes. My chances of having a dead puppy are going up exponentially while I sit here and twiddle my thumbs and cross my eyes. What do I do? 

GW [19:51] Number one thing: give calcium. And give a lot of it. So if we tie together the other findings in this study… So we have a natural whelping without dystocia, that’s a great way for puppies to be born with low stillborn rate. But what’s another way? A natural whelping with dystocia with calcium. So if we’re beginning to say, “Hey, that clock is ticking.” And we’re getting near that antsy, where you can’t stop staring at her, and you’re looking at the clock and you’re looking at her—give calcium. Give more calcium. That, to me, is our number one thing to do. 

LR [20:27] We are going to talk a little bit more through this, and then next week’s episode is going to be on resuscitating a puppy that has made it out alive that’s got a heartbeat but that is having a hard time. Let’s finish up this piece and what we can do to give us the best chance of being able to resuscitate that puppy next week. 

GW [20:51] I’m going to start with calcium, and then pass it to Susan.

SP [20:55] One of the other things that I have started doing is I make syringes. Basically I have Labradors and Gordon Setters, and those are the dogs that whelp at my house. I make a 20cc syringe, and I mix up 1,000mg of calcium powder. I mix it into 50% pedialyte with a little bit of broth (because they like it to taste good) and 50% karo syrup or straight table sugar. The other thing that I find happens, especially with an over-5/under-10 litter, is mom gets tired. So I need to feed the muscles. The muscles feed on glucose. I’m not candidly sure about the electrolytes, but it’s a do-no-harm addition. They are now coming out with doggie electrolytes. So maybe I was onto something! It was Marty Greer who told me—and she’s got a podcast up—about preloading. When your bitch is starting an active labor, before that first puppy comes, you preload that calcium. That gives them the push, but I find that nutrical also works. I want there to be an energy source, because most of our bitches do not eat through whelping. I do have one who will eat everything that you feed her through whelping, but if I have to go in for a C-section, I don’t want her to have a full stomach. 

LR [22:26] Now, Susan, I’m going to stop you right there because my advice has always been (that’s been given to me, and that I have given out): no calcium prior to the first puppy. 

SP [22:35] I will tell you that the reason that I have said that is because we have a lot of people who didn’t recognize what real labor was, versus too early. People were giving calcium days early. That can truly trick the parathyroid gland into not working with the calcium. You need to make sure that that bitch is truly in labor, not that she’s just still farting around and you think she is.

GW [23:04] But you can give calcium at the first heart contraction. You can actually give calcium at the end of stage 1 labor. When you know she’s making that transition from nesting and nesting and nesting and nesting and nesting—

LR [23:18] Panting hysterically.

GW [23:19] Panting, panting, ripping up towels. To “I’m buckling down.” You can give calcium at that point. You aren’t going to mess up the parathyroid gland that close to whelping. 

LR [23:33] That is exactly the point, Gayle. 

SP [23:35] We were just finding people who started in the nesting, and we all know that some dogs can start nesting a week before. How do we find a safe zone? In reality, right away. 

GW [23:48] Let me just dump in a few other things, Laura, if it’s okay. So we’re going to give calcium. We’re going to give some sort of energy. But then, for me, I then go into walks. We’re going to go for a walk. 

LR [24:01] I was hoping we were going to lead into this, because I—again, and long-time listeners of the podcast will have heard all of my various horror stories. But the one that was the most difficult was last year’s with 13 (too many), and we ran. That darling little mama dog had—I mean, everybody lived. But I’m telling you: we pulled out every single trick in the book. And exercise, wheelbarrow—you name it. Let’s talk about that.

SP [24:36] We go up and down stairs. 

LR [24:39] I don’t have any stairs. 

SP [24:41] I’m fortunate. I not only have a slight hill, but I have sets of stairs. We will do that. I think description of the wheelbarrow, especially with large-breed dogs, is easier for me to do the wheelbarrow if I have the dog with its head at the bottom step between generally my whelper helper (who, during Covid, has been my husband): “Here, honey. Put the dog’s head between your legs.” And I will have it coming down, so it’s already giving me a 30-degree angle. I only have to go up to a 45-degree angle. The reason for the wheelbarrow is if you have a malpositioned puppy, the uterus will actually relax enough to let that puppy suck back in and reposition. And then doing what Gayle said: the walks make the difference. Generally, it comes right back out.

LR [25:33] And, Susan, I know what I’m talking about, but let’s give folks a real good visual of what you’re doing. You’re taking the hind legs of the dog as if they are the handles of the wheelbarrow. 

SP [25:46] Correct. When you were a little kid, and we had wheelbarrow races with our hands on the ground and our legs up in the air. The difference is I want someone at the front because I want the shoulders of the dog to be braced. I want her to feel supported. Especially with large breeds, which can be very challenging. I’m not talking a Jack Russell or a Corgi or something, but a large breed. Especially if you’re looking at a Saint Bernard or something like this. We have to use tools. That, to me, is a really good tool. The other challenge is I have had puppies be so large that they can’t get through the pelvic area, and I do what’s called a wood’s maneuver. I actually have some pictures of myself sitting down with my dog’s head facing me on their back. I am pulling their legs spread apart up to me, and what we’re doing is we are widening the pelvic opening so that the puppy can come through because there are times that they will get stuck, especially for me and my large-breed dogs.

LR [26:54] Gayle? 

GW [26:55] I do wheelbarrow. The one thing I’ll say on wheelbarrow is we are picking the dogs up above the knee. Between the hip and the knee. 

LR [27:06] Not at the hoc! 

GW [27:07] My brother was picking me up by the toes in the wheelbarrow! 

SP [27:15] We’re supporting right at the knee, so you’re almost pushing the foot into itself and compressing it a little bit, so it’s the foot and the knee that you’re holding together. You’re not just holding the hocs up and hanging the dog by the hoc. You’ve collected it underneath. I don’t have any other better descriptive words.

GW [27:35] I don’t know about you, Susan, but I’m usually doing it for about 10 minutes, which is extremely hard on me, and it is extremely hard on the bitch. I always warn people: this will be hard on your bitch. It’s very uncomfortable for them. But it is better than a C-section. I say wonderful things to them and tell them how much I love them, and I know this is uncomfortable, but we’ve got to get this puppy out, so we have to do this. I find wheelbarrow, wood’s maneuver, and then—

LR [28:11] Running in circles!

GW [28:12] Lots of running. Long car rides. I have had so many puppies born at Exit 4 on I-84! 

SP [28:23] We call it the Bumpy Road Protocol. 

GW [28:26] It works. Get in the car and go. It works. But that means if you’re going for a ride, you’re either on your way to the vet or you’re going to try to drive. Ideally, you have the bitch loose in the back of the car. I never ride with my dogs loose outside of a crate except for in this situation, and I have someone with them. 

LR [28:48] I was going to say: there’s got to be a person back there!

GW [28:51] To assist, because often they are going to whelp. If you’re driving, you don’t want to be thinking about that. 

SP [28:58] This brings me up to the tools that I think are really important for whelping. One is a whelper helper. Even if the person doesn’t know too much, if they’re willing to follow directions…

LR [29:09] If they can just drive the car while you sit in the back. 

SP [29:12] Even if they’re just there for helping with the wheelbarrow, driving—all of those things make a big difference. The next is a stethoscope for listening to heartbeats because we do lose puppies because we let the heartbeats go so low; they’re in stress. And/or a doppler. So you can do your own heartbeats that way. I have a stethoscope. But that’s because my daughter is a nurse, and I get free hand-me-downs. I think those 3 things are really important tools. But there was one other thing in the study that was interesting to me. That was stillborn weight relationship to birth weight. 

LR [29:48] Yeah, I think that’s a really, really good thing. 

SP [29:51] With the smallest puppies that have the highest risk at about 6% and, interestingly enough, the largest puppies are very similar at about a 5% risk. So people who overfeed their girls, and so have super large puppies, can be contributing to a challenge where I’d rather have a mid-size puppy. For me, Labradors tend to be roughly a pound, but I’m really happy with my 14 ounce puppies because they really bloom. I don’t need 16-18 ounce puppies. Because I find that they’re not always as thrifty. 

GW [30:29] And I think that they have a much harder birth process. I completely agree. It’s actually one of the reasons that I push early ultrasounds so hard. The 30-day ultrasound with a veterinarian who is willing to make and attempt a count. Once you have that count, you can feed appropriately to litter size. If you had no idea how many puppies she has, and she isn’t going to show, say, until the last 2 weeks, how do you know how much to feed her? If she only has 1 puppy, you should increase her food by 10% max over pregnancy. If she has 13 or 14 or 15 like your girls, we don’t want those 8 and 9 ounce puppies. They have the highest risk of not surviving both the birth process and those first 2 weeks. So we’re looking for that sweet spot. We need to feed to get to that sweet spot. I sort of rant about ultrasounds and counts, and I know not every veterinarian is willing to count, but that’s also why I use dopplers, because I get a pretty good count. I just can’t get it quite as good as a good vet with an ultrasound machine. 

SP [31:42] Sadly it’s the ultrasound machines. I know in my area, I’ve got to travel fairly far. I know that we would prefer not to have an X-ray, especially with breeds who have high cancer rates. There’s a risk/reward to anything we do. But my next Christmas present from me to me is going to be a doppler.

GW [32:04] I’ve used a doppler for 15 years and love it. 

LR [32:06] I just want to make sure that I clarify. When Susan is talking about an X-ray, she is not talking about an X-ray at 30 days. She is talking about an X-ray at 57 days. 

SP [32:16] Actually 57-62. 

LR [32:19] Not at 30! Let’s just be really clear about that and not let people get confused! 

SP [32:24] Speaking of stillborns, I think there’s one more thing that people forget. Placentas have a shelf life. 

GW [32:31] Very, very important. 

SP [32:31] We have a lot of people who do not use progesterone testing, and I understand that. Fortunately, there are some great labs. There’s BET. There’s MSU. There are other labs that you as a breeder can set up an account for. Draw your own blood. Spin it down. Again, my tools are centrifuge. I used to do it 2 spin cycles on the hot cycle of the top load. I know. I see Laura shaking her head. But it worked!

LR [33:02] Okay, I’m here to tell you that I’ve been breeding dogs for 40 years. I do not have my own centrifuge. I do not require my listeners to have a centrifuge. 

GW [33:12] If you’re going to do this a lot, I say make your Christmas list. What are the things that you would like to add? They’re not essential. But they may be saving puppies. There are breeds that struggle to whelp, that just are lazy whelpers and they’re going to end up with 65 or 66 days post-ovulation. I think Susan’s point is very well taken. Placentas die rapidly, as the corpus ludia die on the ovary. They’re going to die at 64 days post-ovulation. You might get another 24 hours. Those placentas—they just begin to dissolve very rapidly. That kills puppies. It kills them very quickly. You’re sitting there listening to a heart rate, and it’s day 65, and you’re like, “Oh, those heart rates are at 180. They’re at 200. It’s all good.” Within 4 hours, that can be over. 

SP [34:14] You can lose the whole litter. I think that’s a critical thing.

LR [34:18] Again, we’re going to go back to encouraging progesterone timing, no matter. 

SP [34:25] You don’t have to necessarily draw a lot of blood. I generally start drawing day 5, day 7, because I know when I see first blood—I actually only did 2 draws for a girl I just bred this week. We did one on Friday, and she was 3.4. On Monday, she was 22.9! 

LR [34:43] She ovulated!

SP [34:47] But it is one of those tools. It is the golden standard. It isn’t just timing the breeding so that we get a nice-size litter, but it is making sure that we don’t go past our expiration date. In conjunction with this study, I think there’s a lot of good tools out there that will help us be better breeders with lots of science and knowledge.

LR [35:12] Excellent. Alright, you guys. Thank you so much for this very tough topic to start our Breeder to Breeder series. The good news is that we’ve got the hard stuff out of the way. Now we’re going to talk about all the things that we can do, so catch up with us next week for that!